Posted on 05/04/2007 5:46:36 AM PDT by Saundra Duffy
Thank you, good site, and I guess they had the rights (grin) so now I have a new source.
thanks again.
I’m guessing she must have been pretty tired.
I hate to admit it, but I’ve said the same ending on public speaking engagements that had nothing to do with church. You can’t really cover up something like that, you just have to keep smiling.
Of course, that's why on the title page of the original BoM we find: "...by Joseph Smith, jr.,author and proprietor." [Of course, the contemporary BoM has been conveniently changed to "translator"]
I am telling you, you do not know what I believe...
Comprehensively, no. Directionally, it's not like I'm your personal holy spirit. Doctrinally, well, LDS do vary like any folk. But generically, based upon doctrinal professions, COUPLED with the very heavy emphasis that LDS are to be subject to their general authorities (heavier emphasis, I believe, than most religions), somebody CAN come fairly close to pinning down what certain LDS folk believe. It may not be 100% accurate; some LDS are closer to Biblical truth, whereas other LDS lean more toward "restoration recitations."
My comparison would be that if all LDS were pharmacists, they'd all dispense their own customized generic dosages--in fact, I don't know if we could really find a full genuine "brand" item of the "product." But it's only because the brand item exists that the generics also exist.
and you do not have the right to Tell me what I believe, or to tell others what I believe
Well, who could argue with that? Unfortunately, the fact is that once you subscribe to Joseph Smith as a "prophet," you cannot easily be choosy when you go thru his produce section. Your grower is basically farmer Joe Smith. Whatever he grows, if you want to eat, it goes in your basket, whether or not you'd prefer something else.
And, if you come out of Farmer Joe's produce section in the Farmer Joe Supermarket having lots of items in the Farmer Joe basket, you don't blame me if I assume you bought those items from Farmer Joe's, do you? [Even if you ecletically got them from elsewhere]
So if Joe said it, and I repeat it, I guess I'm guilty of telling others what LDS "believe." (Now that does that mean LDS "believe," no...see above for my pharmacists' analogy)
You know Christians go through the same thing. We don't stand and fall with whoever headed up a particular denomination; we stand or fall first on the relationship with the true Jesus and true Father as well as on the character of Jesus Christ and how that character has--or hasn't--saturated our lives. Unfortunately, Jesus is not the "Main filter" of Mormonism; Joe Smith is...Jesus is what I'd call a "primary secondary" figure. Anyway, if somebody deems some comments made by Jesus are "excess baggage," so be it. Tag me with them.
you cannot tell if I am a Christian
As long as you're a straight shooter on this & grant me the same privilege: If I redefine LDSism, you cannot tell me I am not a Latter-day Saint. (I mean "Saint" isn't exactly a word particular to LDS, now is it?) Agreed?
You cannot prove my faith wrong for I have received a witness from he who never lies...
Who appointed me prosecuting witness of your faith? (I don't take over the Holy Spirit's role...see John 16). I am here to bear witness to true prophets (Heb 1:1-2) and to false ones (Deut. 18:20).
As for the "witness" you rec'd, Scripture says, "Test ALL things"...including a Mormon's faith & witness & calling & election made sure--"hold fast to that which is true." So I encourage folks, LDS & historic Christian alike to read 1 John 5:
"For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and thee three are one...If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son. He that believeth [present tense] on the Son of God hath the witness in himself [present tense]...And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life [PRESENT TENSE...eternal life is present tense...it's not simply a future reality!!!!!] , and this life is in His Son. He that hath the Son hath life [present tense], and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. These things have I written unto you that believe o the name of the Son of God; that ye may KNOW [not guess, not surmise, not "hope"] that ye HAVE [present tense] eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God." (1 John 5:7, 9-13)
Do you presently have the Son? Do you have the inner witness of God that you presently have eternal life--a life with (John 17:3) and IN His Son (1 John 5:11)?
This passage, along w/all the Jesus passages in John passages that talk about eternal life as present tense (John 3:36; John 5:26; John 6:47, etc.) show that "eternal life" is not as McConkie & other LDS general authorities defined it ("Salvation in its true and full sense is synonymous with exaltation or eternal life and consists in gaining an inheritance in the highest of the three heavens within the celestial kingdom."--McConkie, MD, p. 669). They define it as the celestial kingdom & becoming gods. But that would mean that if eternal life is present-tense, that we have an awful lot of gods walking around and that the celestial kingdom is here. {To use Joe's language, "that would be a strange and curious godhood, anyhow!"]
Let's just go with Jesus' simple definition of eternal life, shall we? "And this is eternal life, that you know the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom He has sent." (John 17:3)
Knowing is a relationship. It's a present-tense relationship. It's not like we're not going to "know" and trust him only upon death. And it's not like only a select few will know him as "fellow gods."
It is far easier to attempt to attack the messenger than to deal with the message.
The PoGP has a facsimile of portions of the Book of Abraham in the PoGP. Dr. Hugh Nibley concluded that "papyrus scripts given to the Church do not prove the Book of Abraham is true) after the papyri was recovered 40 yrs ago. Brown University egyptologist Dr. Richard Parker examined Joe Smith's supposed "translation" and it bears absolutely no resemblance to the Book of Abraham. In fact, scholars who have translated it come up with a 75-word translation.
Smith came up with thousands of words. A backward "E" translated by Smith as the Book of Abraham 1:13-14 = 76 English words, including 9 proper names & 8 nouns.
Oh, you mean Martin Harris, the Quaker-turned-Universalist-turned-Restorationist-turned Baptist-turned Presbyterian-turned-Mormon? (And that was only before his conversion to Mormonism) Afterward, (after the LDS kicked him out), he changed religions 8 more times (including with the Shakers) & then w/an LDS break-off group, the Strangites. Harris said his testimony for Shakerism was greater than for Mormonism. Just go to a BYU 1955 thesis by Wayne Gunnell and you'll see that the Shakers' "Sacred Roll and Roll Book" was likewise supposedly delivered by an "angel." (BTW, Harris, according to a book, Gleanings by the Way, said he aw the plates via "eyes of faith and not w/natural eyes")
Oh, you mean David Whitmer, who was also excommunicated from the LDS church. According to the Palmyra Reflector (3/19/1831), Whitmer, like Harris, also said he saw the gold plates "by the eye of faith." Whitmer = "dumb beast to ride" & "an ass to bray out cursings instead of blessings" per JS (HoC, vol. 3: 228). Whitmer announced in 1847 (declared to Oliver Cowdery) that he was the prophet of the New Church of Christ.
Or how about Cowdery? Before or as being excommunicated by the LDS church (HoC, 3:16-18), JS said he was the leader of a gang of "scoundrels of the deepest degree (Senate Doc 189, 2/15/1841, pp. 6-9, Comprehensive History of the Church, B.H. Roberts, vol. 1, pp. 438-439). This gang was apparently involved with stealing, lying, perjury, counterfeiting, & adultery.
As a later convert to Methodism, he denied the BoM and publicly confessed sorrow/shame for LDS connection. LDS try to make much of his return to the LDS church in 1848, but Cowdery rejoined efforts after that with LDS apostate apotle Wm McLellin as they tried to raise up a competing kingdom to LDSism.
So you rest your eternal life and faith in these 3?
Non primary sources above from Harvest House Publishers, 1995 pp. 401-404.
I once answered the phone in my apartment at college “Technical support, may I help you?” It had been a long day, Grin.
Explain why if it's the Holy Spirit's role to testify to Jesus (John 15:26) and glorify Him (John 16:14) why LDS witnesses "of the past" who want to testify of a mere man (even if he was a prophet)?
"Therefore let NO MAN glory in men...Whether paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come...ye are Christ's..." (1 Cor. 3:21-23)
Explain the martyrdom of Joseph Smith.
We did. (Colorcountry's explanation is historically accurate) As history has shown, some criminals have been unjustly lynched. [The lynching doesn't disprove they were criminals; only that the punishment didn't fit the crime] JoeSmith was a criminal from his Kirtland Bank $3 days on (and from that era's perpective, from his glass-looking days onward).
Explain why you and yours find “No Evidence” of Joseph as a prophet unless it is that there truly are none so blind as those who will not see.
Explain his false prophecies having to do with the temple to be built in Zion (Independence, MO) [D&C 84]. Explain why David Patten was never sent on the mission he was prophesied to go on in the D&C; but instead he died. For other prophecies he made, read History of the Prophet Joseph Smith and check his track record.
We have already seen all the propaganda. What’s your point? If you are trying to shake my faith, won’t work. I am committed to my Savior, Jesus Christ, the Head of my Church. Jesus Christ is my Lord and Savior and the Great Jehovah of the Old Testament. I love Gordon B. Hinckley and trust him, although I know he is just a man, ordained. Heavenly Father instituted the Atonement whereby Jesus died for our sins to save us. The Holy Ghost tells me it’s true. I am proud to be a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.
“When you cannot prove it true, you say you have proved it false. You begin to look for anything that can prove the falsity of what you cannot prove true. There will always be evidence to prove what you have already decided is true, Always.
All you can prove in a matter of faith is that you do not believe.”
Well said.
“Somebody put words in his mouth that he didn’t say, and if they did, then they probably did it more than once and to others as well.”
So, if somebody was altering Jesus’ words, then is the Bible still entirely correct? Does its existence, if its words are inaccurate, still obviate the need for continuing revelation from the Source?
“When Benson said “The Prophet is the Only Man who speaks for God,” he didn’t leave it at that. He added another two words at the end of that statement, words which you seem to ignore: “The Prophet is the Only Man who speaks for God in everything.””
There are two ways to read that quote, C, and both are equally valid. The first is the way you have chosen: Who speaks for God in everything, meaning nobody else can speak for God.
The second is the way that I interpret it: Who speaks for God in everything, meaning that every topic is within his purview, though others can be inspired in some of the topics. For example, only the prophet can speak for God in affairs relating to the Church as a whole; no other has that authority.
Again, this is a matter of perspective.
“At age 23 (1828) he joined the Methodist church.”
This is not correct. He attended the Methodist church; his name appears on some attendance roles. He did not officially join them.
He did say publicly that this was the denomination he was most partial to at the time; I find it sensible that he would seek spiritual nourishment there.
Nope.
IDENTIFICATION:
A. The Pentateuch consists of the first five books of the
OT: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy
B. The term "Pentateuch" comes from the Greek term
pent teuchos meaning "five-volumed (book) after the
Jewish designation, "the five-fifths of the law"1
C. The Jews called it "Torah" (instruction) which is often
rendered in English by "Law" (Matt 5:17; Luke 16:17;
Acts 7:53; 1 Cor 9:8)
http://www.bible.org/page.php?page_id=29
Enoch isn't even included in the Tanach (Jewish Bible)
1 Enoch
The five booklets that comprise the book range in date from perhaps before 200 BCE to the end of the first century BCE or possibly somewhat later. 1. Chaps. 1-36 The Book of the Watchers may date from the third century BCE. Parts of its text have been identified on several copies from Qumran cave 4; the earliest fragmentary manuscript (4QEnocha) dates, according to the editor J.T. Milk, to between 200 and 150 BCE.
In dealing with 2 Enoch, it is important to take note of the summary words that F.I. Andersen, who translated 2 Enoch for The Old Testament Pseudepigrapha, has written: "In every respect 2 Enoch remains an enigma. So long as the date and location remain unknown, no use can be made of it for historical purposes. The present writer is inclined to place the book-or at least its original nucleus-early rather than late; and in a Jewish rather than a Christian community. But by the very marginal if not deviant character of their beliefs, its users could have been gentile converts to moral monotheism based on belief in the antediluvian God of the Bible as Creator, but not as the God of Abraham or Moses." (OTP 1.97) While a date of approximately 100 CE is sometimes given for it, this remains quite uncertain; in fact, J.T. Milik has argued that it was written by a Christian monk in the ninth or tenth century CE.
No wonder the Jews do NOT include it in their Scriptures!
http://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_sd/enoch.html
Genesis/dating of the Pentateuch (first 5 books of the OT--- LAW)
When was Genesis written, given that man had not been created at the dawning of time or that man could not have witnessed all that transpired? Bible scholars believe that Genesis was written by Moses, under inspiration of the Holy Spirit, during the forty years that the children of Israel wandered in the wilderness (1450 - 1410 B.C.). Moses was chosen by God to deliver the children of Israel from Egyptian bondage. The details of his life are recorded in the Old Testament book of Exodus. http://www.allaboutcreation.org/when-was-genesis-written-faq.htm
The Torah ("Law") [also known as the Pentateuch] consists of:
1. Genesis [בראשית / B'reshit]
2. Exodus [שמות / Sh'mot]
3. Leviticus [ויקרא / Vayiqra]
4. Numbers [במדבר / B'midbar]
5. Deuteronomy [דברים / D'varim]
The books of Nevi'im ("Prophets") are:
6. Joshua [יהושע / Y'hoshua]
7. Judges [שופטים / Shophtim]
8. Samuel (I & II) [שמואל / Sh'muel]
9. Kings (I & II) [מלכים / M'lakhim]
10. Isaiah [ישעיה / Y'shayahu]
11. Jeremiah [ירמיה / Yir'mi'yahu]
12. Ezekiel [יחזקאל / Y'khezqel]
13. The Twelve Minor Prophets [תרי עשר]
I. Hosea [הושע / Hoshea]
II. Joel [יואל / Yo'el]
III. Amos [עמוס / Amos]
IV. Obadiah [עובדיה / Ovadyah]
V. Jonah [יונה / Yonah]
VI. Micah [מיכה / Mikhah]
VII. Nahum [נחום / Nakhum]
VIII. Habakkuk [חבקוק /Khavaquq]
IX. Zephaniah [צפניה / Ts'phanyah]
X. Haggai [חגי / Khagai]
XI. Zechariah [זכריה / Z'kharyah]
XII. Malachi [מלאכי / Mal'akhi]
The Kh'tuvim ("Writings") are:
14. Psalms [תהלים / T'hilim]
15. Proverbs [משלי / Mishlei]
16. Job [איוב / Iyov]
17. Song of Songs [שיר השירים / Shir Hashirim]
18. Ruth [רות / Rut]
19. Lamentations [איכה / Eikhah]
20. Ecclesiastes [קהלת / Qohelet]
21. Esther [אסתר / Est(h)er]
22. Daniel [דניאל / Dani'el]
23. Ezra-Nehemiah [עזרא ונחמיה / Ezra wuNekhem'ya]
24. Chronicles (I & II) [דברי הימים / Divrey Hayamim]
http://www.answers.com/topic/tanakh
By that logic then Ezekiel 3 refers to Jesus as well.
Ezekiel 3
17 Son of man, I have made thee a watchman unto the house of Israel: therefore hear the word at my mouth, and give them warning from me.
18 When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand.
19 Yet if thou warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul.
20 Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumbling-block before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand.
21 Nevertheless if thou warn the righteous man, that the righteous sin not, and he doth not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned; also thou hast delivered thy soul.
Of course Jesus did tell us that he came to preach repentance, which is exactly what Ezekiel 3 is warning about.
Matthew 3
2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Matthew 3:
8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
Matthew 4:17
From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Matthew 9:13
But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
Matthew 11:20
Then began he to upbraid the cities wherein most of his mighty works were done, because they repented not:
Mark 6
11 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.
12 And they went out, and preached that men should repent.
13 And they cast out many devils, and anointed with oil many that were sick, and healed them.
I do however find it interesting that you immediately jump to the conclusion that Either Jesus was a fraud, or people were altering the scriptures we have now on purpose.
I gave those two possibilities, by all means, list your possibities.
“Have you looked at the evidentiary discussion at the pre-trial hearing on Joseph Smith? The prosecutor wanted to prove that Smith couldn’t see anything with his seer stone, so he took a book, opened it randomly, covered it with a blanket and placed it 25 feet away from him. Asked Smith to read the two pages word for word. Joseph Smith proceeded to read the two pages word for word. When the Judge picked up the book and saw what Smith had done, he dismissed the pre-trial immediately and let Smith go.”
You guys get nuttier and nuttier. So, Joseph Smith had Jesus like powers, but he was really just a man, but he had super powers, but he couldn’t balance the bank books.
I just read your dictionary from where I am sitting, it has the word Gullible and your picture beside it. My feat obviously requires you to pray to the prophet Fast Coyote.
I go to magic shows a lot here in Vegas, maybe I should worship David Copperfield.
Lol!
No, my point, in terms of faith, is that you eagerly reach for criticisms but when you look deeper it actually makes us look better.
“So you are deaf to testimony, deaf to scripture, deaf to witnesses, Deaf to the amazing things he has accomplished, yet you shut your eyes and claim it is all a trick. How can you be an objective observer? How can anyone accept your posts as well thought out?”
You guys are nutjobs. I could claim the exact same deafness, blindness, ignorance, intolerance etc. of you and have a symmetrical case. So get off your high horse.
“Don’t you find it at least strange that a boy of 14 in upstate NY, started a movement that drew many millions of people, Drained “un-drainable swamps, Designed and built cities, drew architectural plans, wrote books, inspired millions to better themselves preached of Christ with a doctrine that is still debated today and all this from a boy who had, if I remember correctly, a fourth grade education? No?”
You forgot the parts about fornicating with 40 women, ran a bank pyramid scheme, faked the writing of the Book of Mormon and got ran out of town on a rail just about everywhere he went.
“What have you done with your life?”
I’ve exposed a lot of Mormons as frauds - that ought to be worth a lot at judgement day. Which reminds me, it’s time to turn in the Temple Mormon who is cheating the IRS of taxes on about $5 million. He didn’t seem like such a nice guy the Christmas he and his son threatened to beat me up for asking where the books to the business were.
“Why would a Charlatan go to his death rather than admit he was “Just Funnin”? “
Cause he was a Thorazine candidate before Thorazine was invented??? Just a hunch. In which case he was both a charlatan AND a psycho. Sort of like Ti and Peep, or Jim Jones, or the Reverend Moon, or David Koresh etc. etc.
If that is a valid question, then why did Hitler fight to the bitter end when he could have been tanning on the beaches of Buenos Aires?
Is this America? Whatever happened to freedom of religion? The Temples are open to all when they are first built. When I was a teenager, my Mom took us (Baptists at the time) over to the Oakland Temple for the grand tour. After that, the Temples are closed except for LDS ordinances which are none of your business. Why do you care what goes on in the Temples, especially if you think LDS is a bunch of hooey. No one is hurting anyone inside the Temples.
Good grief already.
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