The author can never be accused of plagiarism, god is listed as the author of both, what’s the problem again?Of course, that's why on the title page of the original BoM we find: "...by Joseph Smith, jr.,author and proprietor." [Of course, the contemporary BoM has been conveniently changed to "translator"]
I am telling you, you do not know what I believe...
Comprehensively, no. Directionally, it's not like I'm your personal holy spirit. Doctrinally, well, LDS do vary like any folk. But generically, based upon doctrinal professions, COUPLED with the very heavy emphasis that LDS are to be subject to their general authorities (heavier emphasis, I believe, than most religions), somebody CAN come fairly close to pinning down what certain LDS folk believe. It may not be 100% accurate; some LDS are closer to Biblical truth, whereas other LDS lean more toward "restoration recitations."
My comparison would be that if all LDS were pharmacists, they'd all dispense their own customized generic dosages--in fact, I don't know if we could really find a full genuine "brand" item of the "product." But it's only because the brand item exists that the generics also exist.
and you do not have the right to Tell me what I believe, or to tell others what I believe
Well, who could argue with that? Unfortunately, the fact is that once you subscribe to Joseph Smith as a "prophet," you cannot easily be choosy when you go thru his produce section. Your grower is basically farmer Joe Smith. Whatever he grows, if you want to eat, it goes in your basket, whether or not you'd prefer something else.
And, if you come out of Farmer Joe's produce section in the Farmer Joe Supermarket having lots of items in the Farmer Joe basket, you don't blame me if I assume you bought those items from Farmer Joe's, do you? [Even if you ecletically got them from elsewhere]
So if Joe said it, and I repeat it, I guess I'm guilty of telling others what LDS "believe." (Now that does that mean LDS "believe," no...see above for my pharmacists' analogy)
You know Christians go through the same thing. We don't stand and fall with whoever headed up a particular denomination; we stand or fall first on the relationship with the true Jesus and true Father as well as on the character of Jesus Christ and how that character has--or hasn't--saturated our lives. Unfortunately, Jesus is not the "Main filter" of Mormonism; Joe Smith is...Jesus is what I'd call a "primary secondary" figure. Anyway, if somebody deems some comments made by Jesus are "excess baggage," so be it. Tag me with them.
you cannot tell if I am a Christian
As long as you're a straight shooter on this & grant me the same privilege: If I redefine LDSism, you cannot tell me I am not a Latter-day Saint. (I mean "Saint" isn't exactly a word particular to LDS, now is it?) Agreed?
You cannot prove my faith wrong for I have received a witness from he who never lies...
Who appointed me prosecuting witness of your faith? (I don't take over the Holy Spirit's role...see John 16). I am here to bear witness to true prophets (Heb 1:1-2) and to false ones (Deut. 18:20).
As for the "witness" you rec'd, Scripture says, "Test ALL things"...including a Mormon's faith & witness & calling & election made sure--"hold fast to that which is true." So I encourage folks, LDS & historic Christian alike to read 1 John 5:
"For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and thee three are one...If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son. He that believeth [present tense] on the Son of God hath the witness in himself [present tense]...And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life [PRESENT TENSE...eternal life is present tense...it's not simply a future reality!!!!!] , and this life is in His Son. He that hath the Son hath life [present tense], and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. These things have I written unto you that believe o the name of the Son of God; that ye may KNOW [not guess, not surmise, not "hope"] that ye HAVE [present tense] eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God." (1 John 5:7, 9-13)
Do you presently have the Son? Do you have the inner witness of God that you presently have eternal life--a life with (John 17:3) and IN His Son (1 John 5:11)?
This passage, along w/all the Jesus passages in John passages that talk about eternal life as present tense (John 3:36; John 5:26; John 6:47, etc.) show that "eternal life" is not as McConkie & other LDS general authorities defined it ("Salvation in its true and full sense is synonymous with exaltation or eternal life and consists in gaining an inheritance in the highest of the three heavens within the celestial kingdom."--McConkie, MD, p. 669). They define it as the celestial kingdom & becoming gods. But that would mean that if eternal life is present-tense, that we have an awful lot of gods walking around and that the celestial kingdom is here. {To use Joe's language, "that would be a strange and curious godhood, anyhow!"]
Let's just go with Jesus' simple definition of eternal life, shall we? "And this is eternal life, that you know the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom He has sent." (John 17:3)
Knowing is a relationship. It's a present-tense relationship. It's not like we're not going to "know" and trust him only upon death. And it's not like only a select few will know him as "fellow gods."
The author can never be accused of plagiarism, god is listed as the author of both, what’s the problem again? [DU]
Of course, that's why on the title page of the original BoM we find: "...by Joseph Smith, jr.,author and proprietor." [Of course, the contemporary BoM has been conveniently changed to "translator"] [CF]
I am telling you, you do not know what I believe... [DU]
Comprehensively, no. Directionally, it's not like I'm your personal holy spirit. Doctrinally, well, LDS do vary like any folk. But generically, based upon doctrinal professions, COUPLED with the very heavy emphasis that LDS are to be subject to their general authorities (heavier emphasis, I believe, than most religions), somebody CAN come fairly close to pinning down what certain LDS folk believe. It may not be 100% accurate; some LDS are closer to Biblical truth, whereas other LDS lean more toward "restoration recitations." [CF]
I do not know how long you have been “Studying” Mormonism; I do not know if you were even ever a member, I do know that your statements of what we believe are not specifically or doctrinally true. You lack the perspective to accurately describe what our perspective is, and thus you should not be trying.
My comparison would be that if all LDS were pharmacists, they'd all dispense their own customized generic dosages--in fact, I don't know if we could really find a full genuine "brand" item of the "product." But it's only because the brand item exists that the generics also exist. [CF]
Of course, the same could be said of any belief, since so much is based on perspective.
and you do not have the right to Tell me what I believe, or to tell others what I believe [DU]
Well, who could argue with that? Unfortunately, the fact is that once you subscribe to Joseph Smith as a "prophet," you cannot easily be choosy when you go thru his produce section. Your grower is basically farmer Joe Smith. Whatever he grows, if you want to eat, it goes in your basket, whether or not you'd prefer something else. [CF]
What a lousy analogy, so Mormonism that I choose and am under no compulsion to stay in is being force down my throat? I like what the church teaches, it makes me happy to know who I am and where I am going. My purpose in life is so much clearer than most people could ever hope to imagine. I have the answers that philosophers and theologians from generations gone by tried to find and I have it all, I know who I am, where I come from , where I am going and why I am here. My future is bright and I am happier than I have a right to be. I think the non believers on this thread are actually jealous of the believers, and that makes me sad, you can have what we have and not diminish, but actually increase our happiness.
And, if you come out of Farmer Joe's produce section in the Farmer Joe Supermarket having lots of items in the Farmer Joe basket, you don't blame me if I assume you bought those items from Farmer Joe's, do you? [Even if you ecletically got them from elsewhere]
Why yes, if you are going to tell me Tomatoes are eggplant and they mean I like eggplant, but do go on with your analogy.
So if Joe said it, and I repeat it, I guess I'm guilty of telling others what LDS "believe." (Now that does that mean LDS "believe," no...see above for my pharmacists' analogy) [CF]
(I will be using the word “You” quite a bit here, please do not take it in the singular for I mean all the non Mormons who post about us in a supposedly knowledgeable way be they former members or not.)
The problem isn’t what you know that Joseph Smith said said, but what you know he meant that just isn’t so. You don’t stick with just quoting him or we’d have no trouble, you state interpretations which were never intended, you cherry pick sentences from several talks and string them together in a most ungracious manner to make him seem mean or boorish. You ask questions designed to get a horrific answer, even if it’s the wrong one. You project your own weaknesses and foibles upon an innocent religion. You who carry a grudge because of a slight real or imagined by one of its members whom you refuse to forgive, and now in the name of Christianity you do us violence to get your revenge. You will not hurt us, for you are aiming at a target that does not exist, an evil Mormon Church just does not exist.
You know Christians go through the same thing.[CF]
I don’t think so. No one in thousands of years has misrepresented your beliefs with any degree of success.
We don't stand and fall with whoever headed up a particular denomination; we stand or fall first on the relationship with the true Jesus and true Father as well as on the character of Jesus Christ and how that character has--or hasn't--saturated our lives. [CF]
I just hope you are not to be measured solely by the Christianity you “Christians” have shown on this thread, or the Hell you condemn us to will be crowded indeed.
Unfortunately, Jesus is not the "Main filter" of Mormonism; Joe Smith is...Jesus is what I'd call a "primary secondary" figure. Anyway, if somebody deems some comments made by Jesus are "excess baggage," so be it. Tag me with them. [CF]
Now here you go telling me what I believe, even though it is obvious you have no idea the Jesus is my lord, My God, Joseph smith is one of his prophets, not my God. And what in the name of all that is illogical is a “primary secondary”? If this is an example of your “Logical” analysis of my religion, then I understand now how you come to some of your conclusions about it.
you cannot tell if I am a Christian [DU]
As long as you're a straight shooter on this & grant me the same privilege: If I redefine LDSism, you cannot tell me I am not a Latter-day Saint. (I mean "Saint" isn't exactly a word particular to LDS, now is it?) Agreed? [CF]
I have always been a straight shooter.
In a word, No, you are not a member of my church.
I believe in Jesus Christ, that is a faith like Buddhism, or Islam or Zoroastrianism or Scientology. I hold the basic tenets of my faith a belief in Jesus Christ, therefore I am a Christian. Your protests otherwise are both deceitful and misleading. Where membership in a specific Church on the other hand is much simpler, we say you are not one of us.
In short I believe in Jesus Christ because I say I do, and you are not Jesus and cannot read my heart, so you don’t know. That makes ma a Christian whether you like it or not.
You on the other hand are not a member of my church, because the Church has to admit you in through a specific set of ordinances and rites, you have not qualified and therefore are not and I can say that because it is a church and we can exclude who ever we want.
You cannot prove my faith wrong for I have received a witness from he who never lies... [DU]
Who appointed me prosecuting witness of your faith? (I don't take over the Holy Spirit's role...see John 16). I am here to bear witness to true prophets (Heb 1:1-2) and to false ones (Deut. 18:20). [CF]
You did when you judged my whole church and found it wanting. With no special authority claimed or even admitted necessary other than a belief in Christ you proceed to usurp the authority given to the twelve apostles of Jesus, claiming their power as your own (and indeed given to all Christians), to judge when specifically forbidden to, to judge me for I am a Mormon and by judging my church, you judge me.
As for the "witness" you rec'd, Scripture says, "Test ALL things"...including a Mormon's faith & witness & calling & election made sure--"hold fast to that which is true." So I encourage folks, LDS & historic Christian alike to read 1 John 5:
"For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and thee three are one...If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son. He that believeth [present tense] on the Son of God hath the witness in himself [present tense]...And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life [PRESENT TENSE...eternal life is present tense...it's not simply a future reality!!!!!] , and this life is in His Son. He that hath the Son hath life [present tense], and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. These things have I written unto you that believe o the name of the Son of God; that ye may KNOW [not guess, not surmise, not "hope"] that ye HAVE [present tense] eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God." (1 John 5:7, 9-13)
Do you presently have the Son? Do you have the inner witness of God that you presently have eternal life--a life with (John 17:3) and IN His Son (1 John 5:11)?[CF]
Yes, actually I do, I have the constant companionship of the Holy Ghost for that is the Gift thereof, unless I defile that presence that it can have no part in me and remain unrepentant. I do notice you ask the questions without giving us your current status.
This passage, along w/all the Jesus passages in John passages that talk about eternal life as present tense (John 3:36; John 5:26; John 6:47, etc.) show that "eternal life" is not as McConkie & other LDS general authorities defined it ("Salvation in its true and full sense is synonymous with exaltation or eternal life and consists in gaining an inheritance in the highest of the three heavens within the celestial kingdom."--McConkie, MD, p. 669). They define it as the celestial kingdom & becoming gods. But that would mean that if eternal life is present-tense, that we have an awful lot of gods walking around and that the celestial kingdom is here. {To use Joe's language, "that would be a strange and curious godhood, anyhow!"] [CF]
Again you show a complete lack of understanding of the doctrines you claim to judge us by.
Let's just go with Jesus' simple definition of eternal life, shall we? "And this is eternal life, that you know the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom He has sent." (John 17:3) [CF]
Are you mashuggana?
You went to John for this? And Chapter 17? First of all You do know that this whole chapter is called “the great intercessory prayer”, Right? And Jesus is what, faking out the apostles the whole time by praying to himself in the third person?
Well, let’s just read a bit more form the good book, shall we?
Lets read Verses 20 through 22.
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
So, Eternal life is getting to know God, Yet Jesus Christ him self draws a simile between the oneness the apostles are to have and the oneness he and God share, moreover, he says the apostles should be one with the same oneness.
And there you have it, God and Christ are separate, in just the same way the apostles remained separate beings. Although the apostles became as commanded one in heart might mind and spirit.
Knowing is a relationship. It's a present-tense relationship. It's not like we're not going to "know" and trust him only upon death. And it's not like only a select few will know him as "fellow gods."[CF]
LOL! Yep know your self, or Know God within your self.
Attacking is not explaining. There are OBVEOUS evidences of apostleship in Joseph Smiths life, yet, all you can do is attack with your eyes shut hoping that no testimony will penetrate, too bad. I testify to you that I know with every fiber of my being that Joseph Smith is a prophet of God and that he restored the church as he was commanded by God to do. I know this because God answers prayers and he has told me that it is true in a way that I dare not deny. I testify to you that though your sins be as scarlet they can be white as snow and that you too may know the truthfulness of the Gospel of the church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.
CF, go with God, may he teach you his way and heal the obvious pain in your soul.