Posted on 05/04/2007 5:46:36 AM PDT by Saundra Duffy
“Romney will always be viewed as a Trojan Horse.”
By you and those who agree with you, yes. By those who are willing to judge him based on his political qualifications, no.
God does not recognize other faiths. The notion is RIDICULOUS. If He did recognize other faiths, He would NOT be God.
ALL of the world’s GOOD attributes start with God the Father. HE is goodness. All the rest is darkness.
Maybe I’m nuts (a very distinct possibility) but last time I checked the Scriptures, God seems to be saying that he is the only One who knows who will end up where. I’m sure some Mormons and some Baptists are sure they are headed for glory but there’s a Scripture that says, “The first shall be last and the last, first” and don’t forget this one (I can’t quote it exactly), “In that day many will say Lord, Lord and the Lord will say ‘Depart from me, I never knew you.” (Ouch.) Anyhoo, my point is that no one knows for sure because we have little pea brains.
I remember reading in the New Testament about how the Disciples wanted Jesus to rain fire down on a bunch of people and Jesus rebuked them.
I also remember the Disciples wanting Jesus to kick the behinds of some folks who were preaching about Jesus but were not His disciples and Jesus said to leave them alone. Know what I mean?
Seems like Jesus gave us plenty of advice about how to treat one another - not that I am the great example. Ha!
I did not rain fire and brimstone down upon your head, Saundra. I leave the final judgement to God. I will pray that you will be with Him.
“God does not recognize other faiths. The notion is RIDICULOUS. If He did recognize other faiths, He would NOT be God.”
I never said that, did I? But He does recognize good people, regardless of their faith.
“ALL of the world’s GOOD attributes start with God the Father. HE is goodness. All the rest is darkness.”
Agreed. And I think there is a lot of good in Islam, for example. If there is, then it has to have come from God.
There is no good in Islam. It is a cult that deceives its followers into converting or killing those who reject Allah, a false god. ANY false god is NOT doing the work of God the Father.
By definition Muslims belong to a religion of darkness in which the goodness of the Lord will never be shown the light of day. These Muslims believe that Jesus was a prophet. That is a LIE.
For you to accept that lie and shrug it off is puzzling. You are so adamant about defending what you believe to be the truth. And in this instance, you accept the lie that the Muslims believe... you pass it over and say, “well, they’re nice people.” Nice has nothing to do with the truth of the Lord.
“There is no good in Islam.”
There, we must part ways. I have known several Muslims, and they have all been good people. There are murderous thugs that sully their entire faith, that is true; but fundamentally, Muslims generally want the same things that Christians do: a chance to live in peace and lead their own lives.
“For you to accept that lie and shrug it off is puzzling. “
I do not shrug it off. If a Muslim were to listen to the message of Christ, I would be delighted.
But I choose to exercise -tolerance- for those not of my faith. I believe that such tolerance is part of the example that Christ gave to us.
I didn’t say I hate Muslims. I know a charming Muslim man in my neighborhood. We are on very friendly terms.
We don’t discuss religion, however. And I have no illusions about his faith.
My point is about FAITHFUL MUSLIMS that strictly follow the teachings of the Koran.
Knowing that they believe my faith is false, I tend to remind myself that their faith is WRONG.
Christ tells us to love one another. He didn’t say we shouldn’t love our neighbors, no matter what their faith is.
And tantiboh... I remember discussing my dear aunt with you. I still love the woman deeply. But I firmly hold to the tenets of my faith when it comes to the reality that she did not receive salvation when in her death she was an adherent to the Buddhist faith.
The post to which I refer was: “Romney will always be viewed as a Trojan Horse.” Fast Coyote
By you and those who agree with you, yes. By those who are willing to judge him based on his political qualifications, no. tantiboh
Perhaps we conservatives may find a source for agreement if we focus upon this point, that Romney's religion isn't likely to direct his decision making process even as much as his resprect for the Constitution and our laws. Here's why: even in all of the contention we've had over Mormonism, we have retained the notion that we each have a right to our religious beliefs and freedom to worship in our own way so long as it doesn't harm others; THAT is what Mitt Romney represents and his life shows it, he shares the same fundamental political values that we can support or reject, but his religious perspective is not the issue of the election.
To be sure, the DNC will seek to make his religious beliefs the source of enough negatives to suppress a satisfactory percentsage of votes to insure a DNC victory. But if we conservatives, cemented by our conservative values though divided in our religious beliefs, can cease discussing the religious issues on public forums, the effort to divide us will fail in the long run. To cease, we must stop proselytizing and responding to same.
NOW, do either of you really believe we (and I include myself in the pact) can or will do that? And if we cannot, how will media twisting and contentious comments like Al Sharpton's effect conservatives in their hearts? THAT is why I believe a Romney nomination to run against the Democrat nominee is a loser, NOT because of the religion he believes which I find antithetical. My point is, unless Mitt and Mormon Apologists make it clear that they will refrain from seeking to use his candidacy as a way to woo more to Mormonism, the negatives potential holds the source of our conservative defeat in '08.
Ping ... I’m tryin’, Boss. If he gets the nomination, we’ve got to find ways to crush the bigotry the DNC will exploit ... and there is a bit of bigotry in us all, even Mormons.
Yours is an interesting perspective. I’ll have to put some thought to it.
“My point is, unless Mitt and Mormon Apologists make it clear that they will refrain from seeking to use his candidacy as a way to woo more to Mormonism...”
I, for one, indeed make it clear. I will testify of what I know to be true when my faith is attacked - whether such an attack is instigated by a discussion of Romney or not. But I have no desire to use Romney as a tool to further my own agenda; frankly, it wouldn’t do any good, because belief in the LDS Church is a reaction to the voice of the Holy Spirit, not slick marketing and packaging, and certainly not some kind of executive branch mascot.
“But if we conservatives, cemented by our conservative values though divided in our religious beliefs...”
Has that not always been the case? Conservatives are wide and varied in their creeds.
“To cease, we must stop proselytizing and responding to same.”
I agree (and I think our theological opponents are quite vigorously engaged in proselytizing, just as we are); though I think that some period of storming will be necessary as part of the group dynamics. I don’t think that period is over yet.
“NOW, do either of you really believe we (and I include myself in the pact) can or will do that?”
I do. I think Mormons need to grow a thicker skin and some more charity; and I think that our conservative theological opponents need to work on their tolerance and look for some common ground. But I’m optimistic that we really can act like adults and work together.
Still, it’s a long way from the primaries. The whole discussion may well be academic.
It’s interesting that you bring up Sharpton’s comments regarding Romney. What, if you don’t mind my asking, was your gut reaction when you heard him make that statement?
“...and there is a bit of bigotry in us all, even Mormons.”
Indeed. All Christians should know better. I’ll have to continue to watch my own thoughts in this regard.
If Romney gets the nomination, I will be faced with how to respond to the negatives which will come from stealthy sources and be protected in the media. You tell me, tantiboh, how do I respond to an assertion that Mormonism doesn't believe in the same God I believe in ... when I agree, how to I deflect such an assertion in honesty? I can refuse to respond, but as a fringe source of op-eds, I have to find ways to blunt such divisive assertions without compromising my beliefs. How do you suggest this be done?
It’s a tough question. I suppose you have to ask yourself if you think that Romney will take the political positions most likely to advance your values - societal, moral, and religious.
I believe that we’ve been presented with a false choice: either we choose someone who will advocate the values of orthodox Christianity, or we choose a Mormon.
I submit to you that either kind of candidate will govern in such a way that your Christian values will be upheld.
Would you take lessons on theology from Mitt Romney? I suspect not. But I think his religious beliefs would tend to cause him to act in such a way that would build up this country’s core goodness.
That’s a goal, I think, that we can all agree on. You can support his actions and policies without supporting the beliefs that move him to advance them.
“He was so smug in his bigoted comment, so sure that there is no reason to fear a Romney candidacy...”
It’s interesting to me that even you, who have vociferously opposed Mormonism, and, I suspect, will continue to do so, reacted negatively and viscerally to Sharpton’s statement. It’s anecdotal evidence, to be sure; but evidence nonetheless of the explosive fire the Democrats handle here.
And there is one thing I think we can agree on: they do not understand the religious conservative. Mark my words, that ignorance will lead to their mishandling the situation.
I grew up as one of six children. We fought and argued constantly. I thought my sisters were completely off-base, incomprehensible, and irrational.
But if any one of us were threatened by an outsider, we would close ranks so fast it would make one’s heart stop. For all our infighting, we were in it together. I could call my sister stupid all I wanted; but if you did it, I was as likely as not to flatten you.
This kind of behavior is ingrained in all of us. I predict that Christians - speaking in generalities - will similarly close ranks if the opposition tries the religion angle. Therefore, I only hope they are stupid enough to do so.
Once again, though, odds are good that this is all academic.
I might add - and it may even serve as a useful extension to the analogy - that the sister with whom I fought the most, I later realized was the most like me. With that more mature, adult understanding, we have both reappraised the other, and are in an ongoing process of building a better relationship.
And the follow on leg in the syllogism is even better:
"Would you take lessons on theology from Mitt Romney? I suspect not. But I think his religious beliefs conservative values would tend to cause him to act in such a way that would build up this country’s core goodness. ... That’s a goal, I think, that we can all agree on."
Tant, now we're getting somehwere.
My pastor and the pastor of numerous churches would gladly “plead guilty” to pounding the pulpit with DOCTRINE that is exclusionist concerning classical Judeo-Christianity. If Mitt is that thin skinned he doesn’t belong in the Oval Office.
This is easier done among Catholics, who take more of a “morality” viewpoint on people, than by evangelicals who care about whether someone is a believer. Surely if the late Pope could kiss a Koran of a moon god, then endorsing a Mormon for a secular office isn’t going to be a big hurdle.
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