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To: MHGinTN

Sigh...O.K. here’s an excerpt from http://www.fairlds.org/Bible/Nature_of_Prophets_and_Prophecy.html

The Conditional Nature of Prophecy
It was the Lord himself, through the biblical prophet Jeremiah, who explained the conditional nature of prophecy:

At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it; If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them. And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it; If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them. (Jeremiah 18:7-10)1

Jeremiah himself exemplified the principle of conditional prophecy when he told king Zedekiah, in the name of the Lord, that he would not go captive into Babylon if he followed the prophet’s instructions; otherwise, he would be taken captive and Jerusalem would be destroyed (Jeremiah 38:17-23). The conditional nature of prophecy explains why Jonah is not a false prophet. The Lord’s threat to destroy Nineveh within forty days (Jonah 3:4) was mitigated by the repentance of the city’s population (Jonah 3:4-9). “And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not” (Jonah 3:10). Ironically, Jonah was upset by the fact that the prophecy was not fulfilled, and the Lord had to explain to him that the resultant repentance of “sixscore thousand persons” was more important than fulfilling the word (Jonah 4:1-11). From this story, it is obvious that the free-will actions of men play a role in the fulfillment of prophecy. Here are other examples from the Bible:

The Lord told David that the men of Keilah “will deliver thee up [to Saul]” (1 Samuel 23:12). This did not happen, however, because David fled from the city (verses 13-14).
Isaiah told king Hezekiah, “Thus saith the Lord, Set thine house in order; for thou shalt die, and not live.” (2 Kings 20:1) But after the king pleaded with the Lord, the prophet delivered a new message, saying that fifteen years would be added to his life (verses 2-6).
The Lord told Moses that he would destroy the Israelites and make of Moses a greater nation than they. When Moses protested that this would be wrong, the Lord changed his mind (Numbers 14:11-20).
The Lord said through Elisha that the combined armies of Israel, Judah and Edom would “smite every fenced city” of Moab and that he would “deliver the Moabites also into your hand.” But one city, Kir-hareseth, was not taken. When Mesha, the Moabite king, sacrificed his son on the city wall, the Israelites left and went home. The prophecy was not fulfilled because the Israelites would not cooperate with the Lord’s wishes.
Through Ezekiel, the Lord declared that the Lebanese city of Tyre would be destroyed by the Babylonian king Nebuchadrezzar, never to be rebuilt (Ezekiel 26, especially verses 4, 7, 12, 14). Though Nebuchadrezzar laid siege against Tyre from 598 to 586 B.C., he was never able to take the city. The Lord then told Ezekiel that, in compensation for his not taking Tyre, Nebuchadrezzar would be given the land of Egypt, (Ezekiel 29:17-10). Its people would be slain and its rivers dry up (Ezekiel 30:10-12; 32:11-15) and the land of Egypt would remain uninhabited for forty years (Ezekiel 29:11-13). But though Nebuchadrezzar defeated an Egyptian army in battle, he never conquered Egypt either.
Isaiah, in his prophesy against Babylon (Isaiah 13:1), declared that the Medes would slay men, women and children and that Babylon would “be as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah. It shall never be inhabited, neither shall it be dwelt in from generation to generation” (Isaiah 13:17-20). In 539 B.C., Cyrus, king of the Medes and Persians, took Babylon without bloodshed, and made it one of the principal cities of his empire. Babylon remained inhabited for centuries afterward.
It is in the light of the conditional nature of prophecy that we must consider some of Joseph Smith’s prophecies. For example, the missionary calling promised Thomas B. Marsh in D&C 112 was never fulfilled because he was excommunicated and forfeited his blessings. Critics have stated that if God really knew Marsh’s heart (verse 11), he would have known that he would apostatize and not be worthy of the promised blessings. The same argument has been used in regard to George Miller’s calling to the bishopric (D&C 124:20-21), eight years before he was disfellowshipped.

By this same reasoning, God should not have promised a throne to David (1 Samuel 16:12-13; 2 Samuel 3:9-10; 1 Kings 2:4; 8:25; 9:5), since David, in future, would commit adultery and order the death of an innocent man (1 Samuel 11). This also brings up the question of Jesus’ promise to his twelve apostles: “Ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel” (Luke 19:28). This promise was made before Judas betrayed the Master and he was obviously included among those who would sit on the “twelve thrones.” How could Jesus have made such a promise to the one who would betray him, whom he termed “a devil” (John 6:70-71)? The answer seems obvious: at the time of the promises, Judas, Thomas B. Marsh and George Miller were faithful to the Lord. By their subsequent actions, they lost all claim to those promises.


192 posted on 04/06/2007 12:18:53 PM PDT by nowandlater (Romney-Thompson 2008)
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To: nowandlater; Alamo-Girl; backhoe; Woahhs; Victoria Delsoul; William Wallace; Bryan; aristeides; ...
Despite your smarmy condescension with your childish 'sigh' at having to defend your assertions, I shall address your response then be done with you.

The assertion you made which I invited you to prove was: "Moses messed up; you know the water thing in the deseret. Some other Biblical prophets made prophesies that didn’t come to past." Your first falsehood was addressed in my initial response, re. Moses failing the Prophecy test because of his failure to speak to the stone for water to pour forth and instead striking the stone ... significant because of the foreshadowing of the Redeemer to come who will not be crucified twice.

Now for your further dissembling. And note at the outset that a conditional nature of SOME Prophecy in no way cancels the measure of a true Prophet, as the Jews living in the day of their Prophets' admonishments testifies so clearly and you choose to dissemble as if it is of no significance since it doesn't support the cut and paste indoctrination you have posted. Since God instructed the Jews to set the standard He instructed for measuring the truth of a Prophet, you have at the outset tried to infer that God is fickle. But I'm not surprised at such chicanery since the entire of Mormonism is based on just such satanic inference with J Smith's claim of God in a body and Christ in His body appearing to Smith, the treasure diviner/scam artist so pure that Christ AND God Almighty would appear to good Joe --THE Christ, who had ascended nearly two thousand years prior and promised to return in a specific way not found in Smith's big lie. For your and Joe Smith's assertions to be truth Christ must be a liar. May it never be ... and may God have mercy upon you specifically for trying this deception so openly.

Your cited examples of conditional admonishments to the Israelites and to Nineveh support only the conditional nature which God instructed with the specific messages and in no way turns all of Prophecy into conditional prophecy. You, if you believe Jesus is the Only Salvation under Heaven, ought to understand this else the numerous prophesies regarding the coming of the Lamb of God could be altered to suit one or another deceiver choosing to do what Smith tried to do, create an alternate Gospel. You have spent bandwidth posting only that which illustrates conditional admonishments, in so far as you can construe them to do so to support your agenda:

The Lord told David that the men of Keilah “will deliver thee up [to Saul]” (1 Samuel 23:12). This did not happen, however, because David fled from the city (verses 13-14). Isaiah told king Hezekiah, “Thus saith the Lord, Set thine house in order; for thou shalt die, and not live.” (2 Kings 20:1) But after the king pleaded with the Lord, the prophet delivered a new message, saying that fifteen years would be added to his life (verses 2-6). Nice try to misuse the verb will as non-conditional when it is precisely used to be conditional with David and Hezekiah. You do not veer from your dissembling agenda.

The Lord told Moses that he would destroy the Israelites and make of Moses a greater nation than they. When Moses protested that this would be wrong, the Lord changed his mind (Numbers 14:11-20). If you look at the Hebrew verb translated as 'changed His mind' you will find that the verb is a conditional assertion, again you try to take a conditional admonishment and misstate it as a fixed prophecy you can refute. How utterly telling of a deceiver.

It is in the light of the conditional nature of prophecy that we must consider some of Joseph Smith’s prophecies. Uh, no, 'we' don't need to lend credence to a liar and conman, but you might need to. You do not warrant further discussion because you are not dividing the scriptures rightly. You are citing passages as prophesies from the Lord God when they are admonishments from a man serving God. J. Smith served J Smith, not God. You have a deceptive way of trying to herd God's scripture into the boxes which will support your cult's lies and elaborate deceptions:

By this same reasoning, God should not have promised a throne to David (1 Samuel 16:12-13; 2 Samuel 3:9-10; 1 Kings 2:4; 8:25; 9:5), since David, in future, would commit adultery and order the death of an innocent man (1 Samuel 11). God made His promises to David with full afore-knowledge of David's life to come. ...

This also brings up the question of Jesus’ promise to his twelve apostles: “Ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel” (Luke 19:28). This promise was made before Judas betrayed the Master and he was obviously included among those who would sit on the “twelve thrones.” How could Jesus have made such a promise to the one who would betray him, whom he termed “a devil” (John 6:70-71)? You conveniently deceive the reader by ignoring the 'Ye which have followed me' ... Judas showed he was not following Jesus when he betrayed him. ...

The answer seems obvious: at the time of the promises, Judas, Thomas B. Marsh and George Miller were faithful to the Lord. By their subsequent actions, they lost all claim to those promises. The answer 'seems' obvious to one seeking to deceive in such a way as to support false doctrine, but it was never so that Jesus made a promise to Judas that Judas later destroyed the veracity thereof ... unless you actually believe that Judas or you or any Mormon is powerful enough to keep the Promises of God by your merit or negate God's unconditional promise by your already determined inability to defeat Satan and his minions. Actually, Mormonism teaches this exact false doctrine, that a Mormon can be so faithful as to make the Promises of God accrue or be unfaithful enough to have God cancel His unconditional Promise of Grace in Christ Jesus. And that is part of why your religion is a cult, a non-Christian look-alike that draws people away from Christ and toward self-salvation as was hinted in the Garden following the deceptive invitation to doubt the Promises of God to Adam and Eve... 'though shalt surely die' and they did, but not in body rather in soul when God's Holy Spirit did not take up residence in their human spirits.

197 posted on 04/06/2007 2:24:20 PM PDT by MHGinTN (If you've had life support. Promote life support for others.)
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