Who made you the arbiter of my soul?
Judge not, that you be not judged. For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you. Why do you see the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when there is the log in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye. (Matt. 5:1-5)
For we did not follow cleverly devised myths when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty.(2 Peter 1:16)
I am not "the arbiter of your soul," and never claimed to be. However, the idea that Christians should never use their powers of critical thinking and yes, judgment (or GOOD judgment) otherwise known as common sense, is one of the worst perversions of holy scripture common today.
There's the full passage above, part of Jesus' Sermon on the Mount. Note, in comparing the the "log" and the "speck" Jesus didn't say ignore them, rather He said for the judgmental person to remove the log first...then to "see clearly." What does this mean? To never make any judgments or decisions? That would be the death of any Christian beliefs at all--as all of us must make decisions on what is true and what to believe.
No. Think of the context. Jesus was preaching to people who, while following a definitely, without-question, God-revealed religion, had gone bad. How? Through a loveless legalistic following after law, that is doing good things, as the basis of their salvation. Read the gospels...what exactly was wrong the the Pharisees of the day?
They knew God's word (and it was definitely God's word...no questionable revelations to questionable persons of questionable character) and they FOLLOWED it, with all their might. But what was wrong? There was no faith in this, and they were trusting not God, and His mercy, but their own goodness for their salvation. The looked at God as a paymaster...someone who, when they died would OWE it to them, due to their good deeds, to let them into heaven.
Such an attitude is not that of biblical faith. God owes us nothing but death--as Jesus' death proved. However, just as God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, chose to raise Jesus from the grave, so too the Trinity chose, before all time, to grant us mercy--through faith Jesus Christ, and His good works. Such a faith allows us to freely live a life of good deeds...NOT seeking to EARN God's favor, rather, doing good for the sake of love.
The 2nd verse shows that St. Peter knew of some religions based on "cleverly devised myths," and Christianity was based on solid eyewitnesses. It is the carefully considered judgment (based on good judgment, or common sense, not the bad legalistic "judgmentalism" condemned by Jesus) of the thinkers of ALL major Christian groups--we whose distinct beliefs go back for many hundreds of years, all the way back to the eyewitnesses who wrote the scriptures, not to the 1830s--that LDS doctrine is so far from the Bible, with its own new bible-contradicting "revelation," that it is no longer Christianity. Christians of all kinds share in common beliefs about the Trinity, the nature of Jesus, human nature, heaven and hell, the atonement, marriage etc. etc. all of which in Mormon doctrine are fundamentally different from all other Christian groups. So either, all other Churches are "an abomination" as polygamist J. Smith (30+ wives?) said, and your 175 year old group is right, or, Christianity is right. A burning feeling inside doesn't matter... It cannot go both ways.
As to your soul? You are responsible for your own choices.
>>I am not “the arbiter of your soul,” and never claimed to be.
You claimed to know whether or not Mormons are Christians. My understanding is that if you accept Jesus Christ as your personal savior in your heart and believe he is the only one through whom salvation can come, that you are a Christian. You cannot know what is in my heart, you cannot know what is in the Millions of Mormon’s hearts. You are judging us without the possibility of your judgment being correct and just.
>>However, the idea that Christians should never use their powers of critical thinking and yes, judgment (or GOOD judgment) otherwise known as common sense, is one of the worst perversions of holy scripture common today.
You are correct about one thing, Judging righteousness has nothing to do with Common sense. I submit to you that membership in no church will guarantee you salivation, and that similarly membership in no church will deny you salvation. Jesus specifically said John 8:7 http://scriptures.lds.org/en/john/8/7#7 “So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.” Specifically talking about the kind of judgment you are engaged in here.
>>There’s the full passage above, part of Jesus’ Sermon on the Mount. Note, in
>>comparing the the “log” and the “speck” Jesus didn’t say ignore them, rather He said
>>for the judgmental person to remove the log first...then to “see clearly.” What does this
>>mean?
It means that you may have less modesty than the Jews who left when faced with their own “Logs” (My Bible says “Beam” BTW)
>>To never make any judgments or decisions?
You may feel free to decide if you should buy more milk, you may even decide that Sins are bad, but to say that someone who is professing a belief in Christ is not a Christian is over the line, and you know it.
>>That would be the death of any Christian beliefs at all—as all of us must make
>>decisions on what is true and what to believe.
There is a big difference between you deciding what you want to believe and you deciding what I must believe.
>>No. Think of the context. Jesus was preaching to people who, while following a
>>definitely, without-question, God-revealed religion, had gone bad. How? Through a
>>loveless legalistic following after law, that is doing good things, as the basis of their
>>salvation. Read the gospels...what exactly was wrong the the Pharisees of the day?
When Moses re-established the religion of God among the descendents of Abraham, he talked about the hardness of their hearts, and the stiff-neckedness, and their pride. Sadly not much has changed today. We seem always to have modern Pharisees among us, people who will legislate the distance that can be walked, what can be carried on the Sabbath, and continue to focus on the outward appearance, rather than on faith.
>>They knew God’s word (and it was definitely God’s word...no questionable revelations to questionable persons of questionable character)
Do you know how many books of scripture they had? (hint, more than we do, for we have rejected many of them, try looking up the book of Enoch, which was where Jesus kept quoting “the son of Man“ from. “The son of man” is a specific reference to a prophecy about him by Enoch, but we don’t study this scripture which was referenced incessantly by the Savior and the apostles today why?) As to questionable, by what authority do you speak for Jesus in judging me and all my people?
>>they FOLLOWED it, with all their might. But what was wrong?
First, they were not following the law, Jesus’ very trial showed that. Let me list for you the things that were illegal about Jesus’ trial and I am sure that I will miss some a I am doing this off of the top of my head.
1. The Sanhedrin was never to meet at night.
2. The Sanhedrin was not allowed to “Seek” witnesses.
3. Jesus never spoke in his defense, so they could not render a judgment.
4. If the Sanhedrin was unanimous in its verdict, the trial was a supposed to be void because the accused had no friend among the Sanhedrin.
5. They spit in his face, which should have caused a mistrial.
6. They taunted him asking him to tell them who had hit him.
7. They hit him which was illegal and should have caused a mistrial.
8. The “Crime” the Jews told the Roman’s Jesus had committed was different from what they had convicted him for.
>>There was no faith in this, and they were trusting not God, and His mercy, but their
>>own goodness for their salvation. The looked at God as a paymaster...someone who,
>>when they died would OWE it to them, due to their good deeds, to let them into
>>heaven.
There were so many problems with the Jewish church of that day that I am surprised you only found these.
>> Such an attitude is not that of biblical faith. God owes us nothing but death—as Jesus’ death proved.
Just curios, how did Jesus’ death prove God owes us death? (Not that I think he “owes” us anything, I just never heard this proof from Jesus’ death before)
>> However, just as God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, chose to raise Jesus from the
>>grave, so too the Trinity chose, before all time, to grant us mercy—through faith Jesus
>>Christ, and His good works. Such a faith allows us to freely live a life of good
>>deeds...NOT seeking to EARN God’s favor, rather, doing good for the sake of love.
A. Find me one scripture form the Bible (King James Version, the “New” translations with Jesus saying “Dude” and the like give me a headache)/
B. Show me where the LDS church teaches that we “Earn” heaven.
C. Show where the LDS church says that God “Owes” us anything.
Do you know the definition of a straw man argument? This is a really good example. You claim we believe something that we don’t that is easily disproved, then disprove it and basically try to dismiss us before we can respond. It is a common, obvious tactic. Show me where we say what you are saying. The churches web site is http://www.lds.org all the cannon of the church and more is published there and available for online searches.
>> The 2nd verse shows that St. Peter knew of some religions based on “cleverly devised myths,” and Christianity was based on solid eyewitnesses.
Eyewitnesses, ok how about some eyewitnesses:
1. The account of the three witnesses http://scriptures.lds.org/en/bm/thrwtnss
2. The testimony of the eight witnesses http://scriptures.lds.org/en/bm/eghtwtns
3. Joseph Smith’s testimony about the book of Mormon http://scriptures.lds.org/en/bm/jstestimony the refusal of Joseph smith to recant this testimony led to his murder by people who would not accept it. It is apparent to even a casual student of his life that Joseph Smith knew that if he would recant his testimony, he would live. Thus he died for his testimony that you now denigrate.
>>It is the carefully considered judgment (based on good judgment, or common sense, not the bad
>>legalistic “judgmentalism” condemned by Jesus) of the thinkers of ALL major Christian groups—we whose distinct
>>beliefs go back for many hundreds of years, all the way back to the eyewitnesses who wrote the scriptures, not to
>>the 1830s—that LDS doctrine is so far from the Bible, with its own new bible-contradicting “revelation,” that it
>>is no longer Christianity.
Do you know what a run-on sentence is? I think you do.
“All major Christian Groups” – LOL so who are you excluding? Can you give us a list? How can I refute this vague and unsubstantiated, un provable assertion you have just made? Well, I guess since we are both presumably pajama clad purveyors of internet new media, my word is as good a yours. So “You are wrong!”
Seriously, this is what you consider a good argument?
http://www.newavent.org is the Catholic encyclopedia online, you should do some research there.
First of all look up the first council of Nicea http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11044a.htm
Where Constantine (an un-baptized sun worshipper) called a Council of Bishops by inviting Bishops and killing any who refused to come. Explained to them that he wanted Christianity to become the Roman religion (because it was the largest single religion at the time) and he was planning to unify the empire under the church. Asked (also at the point of the sword) for them to write creeds that could be taught, and accepted by all the peoples of Rome (IE water it down so everyone can accept it). This is where the creed of the Trinity came from.
No, Mormons do not accept this creed that came from men as gospel.
Next, look up Hippolytus http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07360c.htm Hippolytus was reported to have been John the beloved’s great grandson.
“Hippolytus was the most important theologian and the most prolific religious writer of the Roman Church in the pre-Constantinian era. Nevertheless the fate of his copious literary remains has been unfortunate.”
What he wrote was in Greek and was not popular with Constantine, so none of it was translated into Latin. (His writings were not popular because they directly refuted some of the changes he was making to the Church of Christ.)
Next look up a refutation of all heresies by Hippolytus a series of ten books written about the Heresies I suggest you start with “Against one Noetus” which specifically addresses misunderstandings about the nature of God that were creeping in to the church in Hippolytus’ day. http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0521.htm
>>Christians of all kinds share in common beliefs about the Trinity, the nature of Jesus,
>>human nature, heaven and hell, the atonement, marriage etc. etc. all of which in
>>Mormon doctrine are fundamentally different from all other Christian groups.
Early Christians agree with us, it’s only after Constantine that things change on that. I Submit that the nature of God is not up for a vote.
>>So either, all other Churches are “an abomination” as
>>polygamist J. Smith (30+ wives?) said, and your 175 year
>>old group is right, or, Christianity is right.
Go do some research, learn, I am not even pointing you to Mormon sites, I don’t have to, I have the truth and history on my side of this discussion about God’s nature. (polygamy is a red herring you are tying to throw in here, if you want we can get into the Biblical nature of Polygamy in another post) as for the age of our “Church” what an irrelevant argument at one point Jesus was starting a new church, would you have dismissed him?
>>A burning feeling inside doesn’t matter... It cannot go both ways.
So, you are saying revelation from God does not matter?
>>As to your soul? You are responsible for your own choices.
And here I thought only Christians would be saved and that you were saying we (which includes me) were not Christian, thus damning us (me) to hell.
I believe your intentions are pure, I believe you are doing the best you can with what you know. Honestly, you have been sold a “bill of goods” concerning Mormons.