Posted on 04/04/2007 9:42:54 AM PDT by balch3
Once again, it's me and Ralph Peters on the same wavelength, deploring the cowardice of the British sailors and marines kidnapped by Iran. When it happened, I said I hoped the ones who'd shamed their country would be court-martialed on return to Blighty, and given dishonorable discharges after a couple years breaking rocks in the Outer Hebrides (which, believe me—I've been there—have a LOT of rocks). Now, I confess, I wouldn't shed a tear if some worse fate befell them.
The only coherent response I get to these sentiments is: "How do you know what they've been through? How would YOU stand up?" To which the obvious reply is the one Dr. Johnson gave in some similar case: "I may criticize a carpenter who makes me a bad table, though I cannot make a table myself. It is not my job to make tables." It is the job of a Royal Marine to fight, and if necessary suffer and die, for his country. They know that when they go in. It's what they are told! I nurse a quiet hope that if put to the test, I would stand up as well as any Marine. Whether or not I would, however, is irrelevant. Whether or not I could stand up well to torture, I expect Marines to.
And in any case, there was no evidence of torture or mistreatment in any of the filmed cases I have seen. They look just fine. You can't fake that. The girl sailor had that headscarf on within hours. From what I've heard of torture, even weaker cases can hold out for a few days.
(Excerpt) Read more at corner.nationalreview.com ...
I bet so too. The problem is, losing "face" too often in incidents such as this can have real consequences - consequences measured in lives.
What good comes of being brave and dead, when the next person reads that script, or if they all end up brave and dead?
Indeed, that logic is hard to argue with.
The result, unfortunately, is a people unwilling to engage in self-defense, which invites aggression. They thus risk ending up not brave and dead but cowardly and dead.
It's a sort of a paradox and I'm not sure there's a good solution. I do know that these soldiers, in reading those "apologies", even if it did save their lives (and remember, we have no evidence that their lives were threatened), did neither Britain nor the West any favors.
On eof the greatest movies EVER!
WOLVERINES!!!!
It was reported on Sky News a little while ago.
They got some report in that the hostages would not be freed today as was previously told and that the hostages would be spending the night in some Iranian ministry, before apparently being released tomorrow.
It might not mean that much. It seems the Iranians are putting on some last gasp propaganda theatre by hosting some grand reception for the sailor and marines...
You keep saying that. You're right. It's just not an argument against Derb's actual point. So why do you keep saying it?
But if they've told them to surrender rather than fight, it is highly unlikely they would then tell them to behave in captivity in such a way as to endanger the lives they were previously ordered to try to save.
Now who's jumping the gun? There's no evidence their lives were threatened if they did not say these things.
It's pointing out the hypocrisy of demanding that others put their lives at risk while sitting comfortably and safely behind a keyboard.
Yes, that's what you're doing, and I'm pointing out that "hypocrite!" is a weak argument. It really doesn't matter if Derb is a hypocrite (and he acknowledges the possibility!), if he's right. I think he's right.
Exactly.
However, placing yourself as a ‘passive target’ allows all sorts of options, as well as the ones where you get shot at!!!
The Brits have placed their soldiers/marines as ‘passive targets’ many a time, and left others baffled as to the reason, only for the reason to become more apparent at a later date. Just take a look at the 2 SAS fellas that were - supposedly - captured and passed through the Iraqi terrorist network last year, only for the Brits to go knocking on the terrorist doors with Challenger tanks!!!!
It was a Brit set-up from the start.
In my experience of the Brits, nothing is ever as it seems. This whole hostage ‘crisis’ stinks of a ploy to me.......
"There is no greater love than this, to lay down one's life for his friends". (John 15:3).
Military men fighting to keep their own men alive and to keep them from capture by a brutal enemy would hardly amount to fighting or dying "for nothing". It's a blight upon mankind that modern morals and values, (like yours), are pretty much the reverse of old. Political correctness and faithlessness have done an insideously grand job of surgically removing man's spine from him and leaving him without honor.
I’m watching on FNC has this nutjob greets people like a conquering hero. I wouldn’t be surprised if Pelosi sends him a thank you note.
Did you hear this:
The House Armed Services Committee is banishing the global war on terror from the 2008 defense budget.
This is not because the war has been won, lost or even called off, but because the committee’s Democratic leadership doesn’t like the phrase.
http://www.militarytimes.com/news/2007/04/military_gwot_democrats_070403w/
I can just imagine their families. One more dose of nagging worry, another sleepless night even though it sounds hopeful as of today..
yes I heard that. More sanitizing of language regarding our enemies. Democrats can’t stand accuracy.
So you think the Iranian government put them up in a nice room and treated them kindly, and that they just asked the hostages nicely to do these videos and the hostages said yes? Is that what you REALLY think?
and I'm pointing out that "hypocrite!" is a weak argument.
It's not an argument - it is a statement of fact.
These were my initial thoughts too.
The politicians knew exactly where this would go and changed the ROE accordingly.
Having your soldiers paraded on Iranian TV, in a bizarre manner does have a habit of pushing waning support to the cause.
We don’t KNOW anything about what was happening to these sailors.
It’s not right to make these kinds of judgments about them without KNOWING.
fyi, the Iranian regime is very experienced at coercion that doesn’t show evidence of obvious harm, including psychological methods.
Also, you have no idea what kinds of instructions these sailors were given with respect to behavior should they be captured. Maybe they were following the orders of their superiors.
IOW - We don’t Know enough to denigrate their character or cast aspersions or make judgments.
Well I guess you're trying to say that there is a Brit motive behind all this and the ends will justify the means.
With all due respect, your theory sounds a bit tinfoil hat to me.
Nah, the Brits cannot have done that.
They are wimps.
It must have been this Derbyshire fella.
Cheers.
For the record, my ‘morals’ match the Code of Conduct for members of the Armed Forces.
“Only when evasion by an individual is impossible and further fighting would lead only to death with no significant loss of the enemy should only consider surrender. With all reasonable means of resistance exhausted and with certain death the only alternative, capture does not imply dishonor.”
Not everyone is Rambo, despite what the 101st Fighting Keyboardists say. “No good decision was ever made in a swivel chair.””
I don't know, and neither do you. As I've said, though, the "confessions" came in a short amount of time and with no visible evidence of harm. Usually it is considered manly/courageous to "hold out" against torture (which we don't even know took place here), and unmanly/uncourageous not to. A synonym for that would be "wimpy".
It's not an argument - it is a statement of fact.
Ok, it's a statement of fact. One which does nothing whatsoever to refute the point Derb was making.
lol. That was my original thought, but I bit my tongue.
I disagree. It didn’t take them long to show up on TV and the girl agreeing to wear that headscarf. They would have had to kill me before they could photograph me wearing it. What part of “resist the enemy” don’t those brits get. The U.S. military has a Code of Conduct and I would be ashamed of any member who did not do their best to resist.
It appears there will be two camps in Europe. One that will be infuriated by the blatant actions clearly disregarding any rules of war on the part of the Iranian mullahs and the weak blame Western civilization first for all the ill actions of the enemy.
Awaiting the true story of these soldiers and if they wre subjected to “mock executions” they deserve some leniency. But we’ll have to wait and seel.
Till then, the split along these two lines will follow accordingly. And the UK ROE should be examined. If they don’t protect themselves, they are merely civilians awaiting their hostage takers to take action against them.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.