Posted on 04/03/2007 7:14:38 AM PDT by Mershon
Not exactly breaking news.
That is a self-contradictory statement........
Delete this. Needs to be handled in-house, not hung out to dry across the internet.
I’ve read a number of articles about this and I wonder if there is a summary that would be understandable by non-Catholics?
I get that there is a debate about using Latin.
And I read some pretty serious allegations about the preferred provider of student loans and the influence of the largest donor. And that the student loan provider gives money to Democrats.
But I don’t understand what the core theological difference is. Part of the problem is that non-Catholics, like myself are not familiar with the terminology. Without knowing what the words mean, its hard to tell if this is something I should care about.
>>Is Ave Maria a bastion of liturgical orthodoxy and tradition?
A: Not a bastion of anything liturgically — more like a smorgasbord. Fr. Fessio’s Masses are fairly strict and thought-out interpretations of new-rite post-Conciliar directives, and of Conciliar directives, which are a different thing sometimes.<<
Nonsense. This needs to be known or nothing will change.
For non-Catholics: it appears to be a struggle between traditional Catholism, and some that want to promote their own brand of Catholism, ie: charismatic Catholism. If you've never been to a charismatic "mass", to me, it's similar to a Baptist church - nothing wrong with that - if you're Baptist (traditional masses are in Latin or non-Latin, are reverent and quiet with songs at certain times in the mass with NO outbursts. Charismatics "feel the love" and vocally express freely, lots of song, waving of arms etc. Nothing wrong with that, but traditionalist feel uncomfortable at a charismatic mass, and charismatics feel "stifled" in the more rigid traditional mass.
It's a shame there can't be some compromise, and the students will ultimately be the ones hurt.
I for one, am glad this was posted, and if the others don't want to read this, no one says they must.
In adding to my post above, it looks to be a struggle between a conservative priest, and the more liberal administration. The liberals won.
>>For non-Catholics: it appears to be a struggle between traditional Catholism, and some that want to promote their own brand of Catholism, ie: charismatic Catholism. If you’ve never been to a charismatic “mass”, to me, it’s similar to a Baptist church - nothing wrong with that - if you’re Baptist (traditional masses are in Latin or non-Latin, are reverent and quiet with songs at certain times in the mass with NO outbursts. Charismatics “feel the love” and vocally express freely, lots of song, waving of arms etc. Nothing wrong with that, but traditionalist feel uncomfortable at a charismatic mass, and charismatics feel “stifled” in the more rigid traditional mass.<<
I appreciate that information. But isn’t there a theological difference? Is all this really form?
BTW, I lack exposure to Mass but I’ve been in many a Baptist church and there is a quite the variety but I’ve never seen a white Baptist church where the congregation vocalized out of turn freely.
My older relatives talk about the temptation to sneak out to go to charismatic tent revivals because they seemed so much more fun so if the Catholic debate is partly about form I can understand that. But I get the impression there is something deeper here and that’s what I would like to understand.
"Liberals" are people who reject Church teaching for their own secular purposes (such as "Catholics for Choice" and usually related to birth control, abortion, female priests).
There are essentials in Catholic liturgy, and there are areas where variety is allowed. All liturgies have time for singing and times for silence.
The Catholic faith allows for dynamic differences in non-essentials. Thus, someone who prefers a certain type of liturgical expression like a Father Fessio, remains on faculty, teaches at the school, and continues to be a big part of it.
You may well have many more friends on this matter than you may think or imagine.
Also, Roger McCaffery is not infallible but he is verrrrrry, verrrrry good.
Thanks for a good article and interview.
God bless you and yours.
rjp2005: What is there to be afraid of in airing this issue out? What likelihood is there of a positive resolution if the entire subject is kept behind closed doors? What is there about the affairs of our Church and of its satellites like AMU that requires secrecy and public ignorance?
Nonetheless, God bless you and yours as well.
Being a lay person, I've not really discussed the differences with a priest. I do know that the Catholic church lays out rules for mass that must be abided. What I've read is that it has to do with a Pentecostal movement. Pentecost was when the Holy Spirit descended on the Apostles and they "spoke in tongues". (Think Quakers and Shakers.) Pentecostalism is traditionally Protestant Christianity. Some Catholics are trying to bring Pentecostalism into the Catholic church. Traditional priests feel this is a movement away from Catholicism, from what I understand.
>> I’ve never seen a white Baptist church where the congregation vocalized out of turn freely.<<
I'm sure Baptist churches range in the way services are held. Let me clarify that - Southern Baptist. Once, a friend of ours was visiting and he was Catholic. He brought his girlfriend to our mass. During the mass she threw out a few "amens" during the Homily, or when the priest speaks along with a few "thank you Jesus!". It really carried in the otherwise quiet church - it echoed. All eyes were on us, needless to say. They were white and he later explained she's Baptist.
If this is the case, it's absolutely right that it is posted - why don't you educate us on what is really happening then? Hiding behind closed doors will only cause more whispering and lead to more disinformation. Put it all out there and let the truth be known.
That line jumped out at me, too. Modern writing is often unintentionally hilarious. Or maybe even aimlessly hilarious. :-)
But although he was in the "charismatic" movement, he was one of the most conservative priests I have ever met - there was nothing liberal about him. He participated in human chains around a local hospital that did abortions and called Clinton an "immoral man" during a homily the week before the 1996 elections.
He didn't say - first go out into the secular town square and broadcast it to everyone in public. That can lead to rumors, gossip and damage of reputations.
Such is often the tactic of liberal Catholics, who run to media to put pressure on delicate situations according to their preferences, creating an army of busy-bodies.
I give both Monahagn and Fessio the benefit of doubt as a fellow Catholic. I trust they've worked it out.
>>What I’ve read is that it has to do with a Pentecostal movement. Pentecost was when the Holy Spirit descended on the Apostles and they “spoke in tongues”. (Think Quakers and Shakers.) Pentecostalism is traditionally Protestant Christianity. Some Catholics are trying to bring Pentecostalism into the Catholic church. Traditional priests feel this is a movement away from Catholicism, from what I understand.<<
As I understand it, Pentecostals leave their denomination so what you are describing sounds more like Charismatic - people who believe in speaking in tongues as the first manifestation of the holy spirit but they stay in their denominations.
>>About the only thing he changed was adding the holding of hands during the Lord’s Prayer during one of the Masses - and that was pushing things in our parish.<<
That’s interesting... when my parents got married it was considered something of a mixed marriage -Privative Baptist and Southern Baptist with preachers in the family on both sides. One big difference was over whether there should be cushions on the pews and whether having an organ in church was sinful.
We have fairly traditional masses and most people hold hands during the Lord's Prayer. Charismatic Catholicism or Pentecostal Catholicism is much more. The laying on of hands and speaking in tongues appear to be central. Apparently there is much discussion among the Bishops - not that it's wrong, just that it's not Catholicism. THere is an interesting article here: http://www.catholicculture.org/docs/doc_view.cfm?recnum=6587
This is an excerpt:
"It is interesting to note that Catholic Pentecostal groups hold their meetings very often on college campuses as well as in church halls and private homes. Such Pentecostal meetings generally exhibit the following sequence of events. Participants at first pray in their own way in silence. Then a member of the assembly will utter a prayer of thanksgiving and praise. Another will read a Biblical text, and then improvise spontaneously a prayer based on the passage read. A hymn or song will then be sung by someone, and everyone may or may not join in the singing. A number of testimonies may be rendered, i.e., members will tell what remarkable things may have happened to them that made them aware of God's forgiveness, mercy, and presence. Oftentimes, it may be a question of amazing "cures" and "healings." A member may suddenly begin to sing softly in a language which is not recognizable. His neighbors may begin praying for an "interpretation," or another member will render the "interpretation." Someone may "prophesy." Musical instruments such as guitars and drums are often in evidence, especially with younger audiences. At the end of the meeting, there may be exchanged the "kiss of peace" involving warm and fond embraces and actual kisses. For the most part the entire atmosphere of the meeting, though it is not as emotionally charged as some Protestant groups, nevertheless, bears the stamp of a revivalist camp meeting."
If this only involved Fr. Fessio - I might say you are correct. However this affects all the students and potential students - who pay to attend this university, and whose lives and futures are at stake. I have a high schooler and you may not think it's my business to know what's going on in that administration, but before I'd pay a penny to send my child there, I want to know what direction that university is taking. And I'll tell you - this attitude of "it's not your business" is not making it very attractive to prospective students - or their parents. It is our business whether you agree or not.
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