>>but after really delving into the research, I have found the doctrine to not be true;
I will take at face value your assertion that your analysis did not bring you the results you had hoped for. As for proving the Gospel false, that is actually very easy, prove the Book of Mormon to be false, and you’ve done it. Many have tried for years and failed. Proving it true is also very easy, pray about it and get an answer from God and nothing else will really matter.
>>Although I would suggest to you that the Mormon Church views all non-Mormon
>>churches as Apostates via the great apostacy; this can be seen clearly in discourses
>>and teachings by various Prophets of the church
Generally the appellation of Apostate is reserved for those who openly reject the church, not for their children. The Doctrine and Dogma of a church can be apostate without the members themselves being apostate. Just my opinion, you seem to still have an open mind, so I would not even call you an apostate, merely “Troubled”. I hope that does not offend you.
>>The LDS doctrine teaches of a Jesus Christ who is the brother of Satan
Yes, we are all brothers of Satan and Jesus also, I will share with you a few scriptures, not trying to be exhaustive, but a few that back up that interpretation, if it’s ok with you.
If you turn to Revelations Chapter 12 (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/rev/12/3-4,7-10,17#3) read the whole thing through first so everything will be in context, then look at Verses
3, the dragon is another name for Stan Biblically, and this is a retelling of the war in heaven before the world was.
4. Satan drew 1/3 of the children after him in his rebellion.
Now this rebellion happened before the world was, so Satan and all of us must have existed then in some form.
Now go to 7 Michael who was later called Adam in mortality, lead the fight in heaven before the world was, Satan has his own structure and hexarchy of followers copied from the Father, they are called Angels jut as Gods Angels are.
8&9 Satan lost and he and his angels were cast out of heaven down to the earth.
Verse ten is very important for your point, I will include it here.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
So, Satan and his angels were “brethren” to Jesus, and Michael.
17 Satan now makes war with those who strive to keep the Commandments and serve Jesus.
Now I will leave Revelations, and go to some of the other scriptures in the Bible.
Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.
Thus we see that God has more than one son, and Satan can be numbered in this group.
“The Son of God” is a common name for Jesus Christ because he is preeminent among all the sons of God. (I could give you a ton of Scriptures for this one, but you could probably find as many as I could :-)
I could go on, but the idea that Jesus and Satan are brothers is far from without support in the Bible.
>>The LDS doctrine teaches of a Jesus Christ who is the brother of Satan. It is that point
>>of teaching that I have found no biblical basis. Therefore, I can’t say that the Mormon
>>doctrine is Christian because I don’t believe that the Bible teaches that Satan and
>>Christ are brothers, so the question FOR ME becomes what Christ does the Mormon
>>church follow?
We do not claim ownership of Jesus Christ, indeed no man can command him, we offer ourselves and take upon ourselves the Name of Jesus Christ even Jesus Born of Mary by a miraculous virgin birth. This is the Jesus of whom we speak.
Some times I think Christians are like the blind men describing the elephant to each other. We are describing the same elephant, but doing so imperfectly.
>>The King Follet discourse teaches that God did not have the power to create our spirits
Having read the King Follet discourse a while ago (and I confess it was some time ago) I am not aware of this passage, Intelligence (which is not Spirit matter) cannot be created, nor destroyed, but that is not the same as giving birth to a spirit, or a Baby.
Please direct me to this passage of this discourse so I may more fully understand your position.
>> I believe and always have believed that God is Omnipotent, Omnipresent,
>>Omniscient. The Mormon doctrine teaches that he is not Omnipotent, Omnipresent,
>>and Omniscient.
That is strange since I have been taught that God knows all, sees all and with him all things are possible. In short, I believe he is Omnipotent, Omnipresent, and Omniscient please show me where it is taught that he is not, for I am only aware of where these attributes of his are affirmed, and if you wish, I can provide links to such teachings, but I am trying not to write a book in response to your questions, so, for the moment, I will forgo those quotations.
>> I sincerely hope that they are Christian in God’s eyes which is really all that matters.
I agree with you on this completely.
>> ***Remember, all of this is in the context of would I vote for one for president***
Yes, I remember, but I still can’t fathom why A mans religious conviction would be more important than his political convictions. This is a secular job after all, isn’t it?
>> No, I haven’t heard anything about Rocky Anderson.
Rockey Anderson is the Mayor of SLC and is a rabid anti-Mormon who never misses an opportunity to stick his finger in the eye of the church. That said, it keeps the non-Mormons happy to have him there, so much so that they turn out in droves to re-elect him.
>> I’m still reserving judgement on Thompson. I think he has supported the Bush
>>amnesty stuff and I think he’s big on H1Bs and Free (but unfair) Trade. He does
>>initially strike me as a Reagen-esque type, though.
As for Fred, Well, here is a link to him on Fox News, hear him in his own words, and yes, he talks about illegal immigration, and Roe V Wade, and Libby.
Part 1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Snw7_6mJf5c
Part 2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cN3z4mqRn7I
Have a good day, and I hope I have not offended you.
I don’t think I ever made the effort to prove that the LDS Church is false. I researched to prove that it was true and I found that I can not honestly say that it is true.
Most of the things you bring up I have researched. I’ll go thru them one by one.
>> Generally the appellation of Apostate is reserved for those who openly reject the church, not for their children. The Doctrine and Dogma of a church can be apostate without the members themselves being apostate. Just my opinion, you seem to still have an open mind, so I would not even call you an apostate, merely “Troubled”. I hope that does not offend you.
That’s a very fine line to say that the other Christian churches are apostate, but the people who follow their doctrine are not apostates. A very fine line there; respectfully, I would differ with you on that.
I take no offense to being labeled “Troubled”, but I have simply studied the Mormon prophets (Joseph Smith, Brigham Young mainly) through their own words oftentimes (Journal of Discourses) and much of the points on Mormon scriptures (Bruce Mckonkie, etc) and I’ve found their interpretations of scriptures to be logically incorrect. For example, I’ll address the illustration you put forward regarding Revelation below.
>> Now this rebellion happened before the world was, so Satan and all of us must have existed then in some form.
I believe the Book of Revelation is John’s prophetic viewing of times to come after his viewing. They were not events that had already transpired before John had the viewing. Therefore, the war in Heaven could not have happened before Adam and Eve. Is there something that leads you to believe that that “war in heaven” happened before John’s vision? I’ve found nothing to support that. In verse 1 of Revelation: “The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must SHORTLY COME TO PASS; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John”
See the “shortly come to pass” part. That tells me that the things which he is being shown are to come to pass after his vision. So, logically, when someone in the Mormon church tells me that Revelation speaks about the war in heaven when Satan was cast out and before Adam and Eve came to the Earth, it just doesn’t make sense.
>> 10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
See, here the scripture says that Satan is the ACCUSER of our brethren. It does not say that he is our brother.
>> Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.
Again, this scripture says that the sons of God came and Satan came with them. It does not say here that Satan is a son of God, just that he came with them. When that scripture says refers to the sons of God, I understand it to mean the “adoptive” sons of God that Jesus says we become when we accept him as our Savior. But put that aside for a minute, logically, that scripture does not say that Satan is a son of God. Just because he was among the “sons” of God doesn’t mean he was one.
One point about Satan who was originally an arch-angel. We both agree on that. Hebrews chpt 1 vs 11 speaks about how Angels grow old and perish. So, if Satan is an Angel and will grow old and perish, then if Jesus is his literal brother, then would he not grow old and perish too. I can’t accept that as truth.
>> Having read the King Follet discourse a while ago (and I confess it was some time ago) I am not aware of this passage, Intelligence (which is not Spirit matter) cannot be created, nor destroyed, but that is not the same as giving birth to a spirit, or a Baby.
Ok, I’m too tired to look up the discourse, but it’s a great read and I encourage you to take a look at it again. I believe Joseph Smiths use of the word Intelligence is interchanged in his discourse with the word spirit. It doesn’t really matter though, because if our intelligences (i.e or minds existed) were around back then and as Joseph says, God did not have the power to create those intelligences, then logically, Joseph is saying that God did not have the ability to create us (which he says directly in the discourse). That means that God is not Omnipotent, which you said you believe He is Omnipotent. How can you explain that disconnect? If God is Omnipotent, then he can do anything, correct?
Thanks for the discussion, and be assured, I don’t take offense. I am interested to hear your answers to the questions that I have posed.