Marine unit ordered out of Afghanistan

Associated Press ^ | 23 Mar 07 | ROBERT BURNS, AP Military Writer

[leadpenny]

WASHINGTON - Marines accused of shooting and killing civilians after a suicide bombing in Afghanistan are under U.S. investigation, and their entire unit has been ordered to leave the country, officials said Friday.

Army Maj. Gen. Francis H. Kearney III, head of Special Operations Command Central, ordered the unit of about 120 Marines out of Afghanistan and initiated an investigation into the March 4 incident, said Lt. Col. Lou Leto, spokesman at Kearney's command headquarters in Tampa, Fla.

It is highly unusual for any combat unit, either special operations or conventional, to have its mission cut short.

A spokesman for the Marine unit, Maj. Cliff Gilmore, said it is in the process of leaving Afghanistan, but he declined to provide details on the timing and new location, citing a need for security.

In the March 4 incident in Nangahar province, an explosives-rigged minivan crashed into a convoy of Marines that U.S. officials said also came under fire from gunmen. As many as 10 Afghans were killed and 34 wounded as the convoy made an escape. Injured Afghans said the Americans fired on civilian cars and pedestrians as they sped away.

U.S. military officials said militant gunmen shot at Marines and may have caused some of the civilian casualties.

President Hamid Karzai condemned the incident, which was one among several involving U.S. forces in which civilians were killed and injured.

Leto, the spokesman at Special Operations Command Central headquarters, said the Marines, after being ambushed, responded in a way that created "perceptions (that) have really damaged the relationship between the local population and this unit."

Therefore, he said, "the general felt it was best to move them out of that area."

Gilmore said the Marine company would complete its overseas deployment with the 26th Marine Expeditionary Unit, which is the larger unit it sailed with from Camp Lejeune, N.C., in January, but it will no longer operate in Afghanistan.

Of the four Marine Special Operations Command companies that have been established since the command was created in February 2006, the one ordered out of Afghanistan was the first to deploy abroad, Gilmore said. By September 2008 there are to be nine companies operating as part of two special operations battalions, he said.

For years the Marines resisted creating special operations units, arguing that would run counter to their philosophy of viewing all Marines as elite fighters and not singling out elements as special. But former Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld pressed them to establish a separate command — the Marine Special Operations Command — to train and equip forces for the multi-service Special Operations Command.

There are about 25,000 U.S. troops in Afghanistan, mostly conventional combat forces and support units.

[Marine_Uncle]

I am sure a lot of us are getting very tired of hearing about this crap. Pretty soon no American military personel will be allowed to carry weapons into combat. The ROE is becoming to laden with politics. America would never have won any wars in the past under the conditions now being fausted upon our troops.

[Marine_Uncle]

This crap has gotten totally out of hand. We never would have won any wars in the past based on how our men now have to fight.

[bmwcyle]

While the peaceniks photoshop their photos.

Click here

[george76]

The lawyers and their rules are killing us .

[Chgogal]

LOL

"Over-thinking"....I have never been accused of over-thinking anything....I' ll take it as a compliment! I'll ignore the "perception" and "your reality" crack. : )

I think my support and Post #59 proves which "reality" is real. ; )

[Goreknowshowtocheat]

Same reason the locals never shot at the Koreans in Vietnam. Koreans tend not to like being shot at. Americans never minded being shot and killed, but Koreans tended to react with massive force if attacked. The Viet Cong learned early to wait for the Americans.

[Chgogal]

Leadpenny, hopefully you read this.

"A new tactic is to use a suicide car bomber against military convoys, and follow it up with gunfire. If you do this in a town, with lots of civilians around, you can claim that the civilians were killed by the panicked gunfire of the foreign soldiers. This sort of thing is popular with local and foreign journalists."

Funny that Bobbie Burns didn't mention any of this in his article. Guess informed research is not his strong point. Oh well what can one expect from AP?

Also, this is very interesting.

"The Corps’ first Marine special operations company has been expelled from Afghanistan after a March 4 enemy ambush on the Marines left eight Afghans dead and another 34 wounded, a U.S. spokesman said Friday.

The decision to remove the MSOC was made by Army Maj. Gen. Frank Kearney, head of U.S. Special Operations Command-Central Command, based on his assessment of the people’s perceptions of what happened, said Army Lt. Col. Louis Leto, a spokesman for SOCCent.

“After the incident, which prompted an ongoing investigation, the general thought or felt it degrades the unit’s ability to conduct counter-insurgency,” Leto said.

The MSOC’s deployment into Afghanistan is significant and historic, as it is the Corps’ first spec-ops unit to deploy into combat since the creation of Marine Corps Forces Special Operations Command in early 2006. The command is the Marine Corps’ portion of the joint U.S. Special Operations Command.

But SOCCent is investigating an incident on March 4 in which Afghan witnesses and several wounded civilians told Associated Press freelancers that U.S. forces had fired on civilians in Nangarhar province after a suicide attack on a Marine convoy.

“The investigation is still ongoing,” Leto said. “It’s very thorough.”

Too bad the AP isn't as efficient in getting the Taliban to leave INNOCENT Civilains alone. Well done AP! You succeeded where the Taliban failed!

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1805834/posts?page=86#86

http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/news/2007/03/marine_specops_afghanistan070323/

Cannoneer and DevSix, why the heck is Army Maj. Gen. Frank Kearney so darned worried about "perception"? Is this inter-Military rivalry?

[george76]

bttt

" Koreans tended to react with massive force if attacked. The Viet Cong learned early to wait for the Americans."

The British navy could learn some from the Koreans too.

[Cannoneer No. 4]

I don't know MG Kearney, and I don't have any inside knowledge of the inter-service politics involved in standing up MARSOC and then doing them this way, but I can tell you that no O-3 ever made it to O-8 without worrying about "perception." "Perception is reality" when attempting to explain complex subjects to people who don't have the time or the patience to displace their preconceptions with facts. Perception management is one of his Information Operations responsibilities.

Actions to convey and/or deny selected information and indicators to foreign audiences to influence their emotions, motives, and objective reasoning; and to intelligence systems and leaders at all levels to influence official estimates, ultimately resulting in foreign behaviors and official actions favorable to the originator's objectives. In various ways, perception management combines truth projection, operations security, cover, deception, and psychological operations.

[Chgogal]

See Post #82 for the whole email. It is interesting.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1805834/posts?page=82#82

"3. There are those in the Special Operations community who do NOT want the Marine Corps involved as a player, and will use this event and following accusations/actions as an "I told you so." I know this to be a fact because I've been involved with the overall evolution from the very first meetings (Maj Jim Capers, myself and other "old Force Recon Marines" were invited to these meetings chaired by Quantico types looking into USMC involvement in SOF integration)...etc. Most of us have had our reservations about the entry of the Corps into SOF spectrum from the beginning, so we've watched this effort very closely...not listening just to those "singing the school song" on the issue and listening very closely to what others in the SOF community have been saying about not wanting Marines involved...etc. There is ALREADY much talk going on about this w/in the "anti" groups."

[Chgogal]

Well, call me simple, but removing the MARSOC from theater seems like a win for the enemy to me. At least, that is how I perceive it. BTW, thanks for the SP link. It was very interesting.

[george76]

bttt

removing the MARSOC from theater seems like a win for the enemy to me

[Brucifer]

"You would have thought after Viet Nam, we would have learned about being PC in a war."

We did. Then we turned around and forgot every last damned bit of it.

[leadpenny]

I worked with the Tiger Division near Quin Nhon for a short period. I know how they can be.

[freema]

There are several fine lines involved here, IMO. The biggest unknown, however, is..... where are they now ; )

http://www.usmc.mil/marinelink/mcn2000.nsf/ac95bc775efc34c685256ab50049d458/154d4d92befbb7f685256feb00467d00?OpenDocument

http://www.armedforcesjournal.com/2005/12/1222996
For nearly 20 years, however, the Corps has remained outside the spec ops world, working hard to avoid creating an elite cadre within a force that considers itself already elite.

[Chgogal]

BTTT

Thanks for the info!

[Marine_Uncle]

Sad part is the military is allowing PC to take control over how they are conducting these two ventures.

[Marine_Uncle]

No different then what we saw during the sixtees and early seventies.

[Rb ver. 2.0]

Policing is a misuse of Marines.

[george76]

I remember early on in Afgan that we had several good shots available but we had to wake up some lawyer in Tampa to get permission.

The al q... guy got away apparently.