Posted on 03/19/2007 9:37:58 AM PDT by neverdem
We will forever agree to disagree.
That is 100% correct -- I don't have any idea why you would think that.
The question is; Do you have any idea why you think that?
I don't remember Lincoln ever giving that as a reason for his actions. Lincoln opposed the Southern acts of secession because he believed they were illegal. He fought the war because the war was forced upon him when the South attacked Sumter. Lincoln's sole goal in the war was the preservation of the Union, and I don't have any problems at all buying that.
But honestly, is there any good reason I should have to qualify my opinion?
Just curious on what you based it on.
Yes.
Blaming Lincoln for the self created problems of the south is intellectual dishonesty.
free dixie,sw
free dixie,sw
No, actually they were Copperheads were just as much hate America filth as todays leftists.
Well actually until late 1775, and Paine's pamphlet, Washington was fighting more for a stalemate and less for independence. Until Common Sense there is an argument that many saw reconciliation still as a possibility
However, it is clear from Washington's stance, less got through to Hamilton, and even less to his worshippers today, of the intent of the federal government. The only thing I wish hadn't happened in Hamilton's life is the duel. If Burr hadn't shot the bastard (legal definition) perhaps his views would have been ridiculed properly by 1820 instead of making him some saint martyr for the 'nation'
Sure is. Pop up to Washington and tell George I'm tired of handing over a large portion of my paycheck needlessly to pay for his programs, not to mention the federal behemoth created by lincoln
In the words of Jefferson...
Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed.
Now who exactly was pushing for full and complete Revolution in 1775? (before anyone had even heard of Tom Payne).
It was another one of you enemies --- that dastardly John Adams.
Bill, with all due respect, you devotion to a pack of mid 19th Century slave driving aristocrats who were willing to break the nation and who categorically rejected the founding documents....
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness... has driven you to the point that you can even call Washington "luke warm" to Independence and creates this artificial Satan in the form of Hamilton, I'd suggest you should reexamine you fundamental premises.
You do realize, I hope, that the "founders" of the Confederacy ridiculed that basic statement of our values and said the Jefferson was wrong. They had to reject what the Revolution was about in order to justify their "institution" which had long since passed the stage of 'unpleasant necessity" that the Framers faced in 1787 and moved into the "positive good" (and positively profitable) rational. Rejecting the founding principles was then their only option.
Hamilton was not a saint. Nor were Washington, Jefferson or Adams. They were all fallible humans doing the best they could through the circumstances under which they lived. I would never attack any of them based upon what seceding generations have done to the institutions they founded.
But if we were to take your 'model' which was the lineage of the Confederates --- the Jeffersonian agrarian model where wealth in land holdings were the future, vs. the Hamiltonian-Clay model that allowed for a multifaceted economy -- agricultural, commercial and industrial, I'd say the US today would have been another Mexico and we would all be figuring out how the hell to get into Canada.
History has vindicated Hamilton. But because of your blind devotion to the Lost Cause Mythology, you are forced to reject plain facts.
And again. As a young man, Hamilton actually ran Red Coats through with his bayonet while at the same time, Jefferson poked at them from a distance with his quill.
They both served, in different ways but to question Hamilton's patriotism is beyond silly and to somehow lay FDR, the New Deal or the Great Society madness on Hamilton is just flat stupid.
Seeing as you're quoting the original document of secession let's go a bit further down that same paragraph
That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.
You quote all around it and yet somehow miss that bit.
--- the Jeffersonian agrarian model where wealth in land holdings were the future, vs. the Hamiltonian-Clay model that allowed for a multifaceted economy -- agricultural, commercial and industrial, I'd say the US today would have been another Mexico and we would all be figuring out how the hell to get into Canada.
Yes and tax the citizenry for their own good to build this system. Considering taxation of the citizens of the separate and sovereign states at this level would be foreign to the Framers, you can't very well argue they would have advocated what it took to build Hamilton's 'dream'.
History has vindicated Hamilton.
Actually it hasn't. We are finally facing the logical end to Hamilton's view. A nation that is dependent upon more and more taxation whose infrastructure is failing because the government can't keep it up. What's the government solution? More programs and more laws to collect funds to pay for it. However Hamilton's plan taken to its logical conclusion creates nothing but political slush funds, as the 'illustrious country lawyer' and his friends could attest to if they were still alive. The corruption from the railroad system alone would be enough to send any current politician to jail.
But because of your blind devotion to the Lost Cause Mythology, you are forced to reject plain facts
And what 'plain facts' would those be? That the 'American System' was rejected out of hand by many? That it bankrupted every state internal improvements were tried? That all states had flatly outlawed such programs by the middle of the 19th century? Or that the 16th President's economic policy was forced down the throats of the nation at the barrel of a gun? Or the fact that a National Bank had been tried, more than once, and failed?
And again. As a young man, Hamilton actually ran Red Coats through with his bayonet
His desire for adventure or desire for monarchy is not in question.
while at the same time, Jefferson poked at them from a distance with his quill.
But yet you'll selectively quote from him to make your argument.
They both served, in different ways but to question Hamilton's patriotism is beyond silly and to somehow lay FDR, the New Deal or the Great Society madness on Hamilton is just flat stupid.
No, not at all. Except that FDR's programs, Johnson's Great Society, and Bush's government waste (of which there is apparently no end) are the logical next steps in Hamilton's 'American System'. A citizenry that looks to one centralized power for handouts and leadership. Fortunately, for us, he didn't get his king. Well he didn't. But the way the general public looks to DC, we may yet one day.
Not a secession at all. It was a Revolution... and they justified it.
He has refused his Assent to Laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public good.I have seen no similar list of grievances from you Confederate heroes. Their only complain was that they lost an election. Typical Democrats.He has forbidden his Governors to pass Laws of immediate and pressing importance, unless suspended in their operation till his Assent should be obtained; and when so suspended, he has utterly neglected to attend to them.
He has refused to pass other Laws for the accommodation of large districts of people, unless those people would relinquish the right of Representation in the Legislature, a right inestimable to them and formidable to tyrants only.
He has called together legislative bodies at places unusual, uncomfortable, and distant from the depository of their Public Records, for the sole purpose of fatiguing them into compliance with his measures.
He has dissolved Representative Houses repeatedly, for opposing with manly firmness his invasions on the rights of the people.
He has refused for a long time, after such dissolutions, to cause others to be elected, whereby the Legislative Powers, incapable of Annihilation, have returned to the People at large for their exercise; the State remaining in the mean time exposed to all the dangers of invasion from without, and convulsions within.
He has endeavoured to prevent the population of these States; for that purpose obstructing the Laws for Naturalization of Foreigners; refusing to pass others to encourage their migrations hither, and raising the conditions of new Appropriations of Lands.
He has obstructed the Administration of Justice by refusing his Assent to Laws for establishing Judiciary Powers.
He has made Judges dependent on his Will alone for the tenure of their offices, and the amount and payment of their salaries.
He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harass our people and eat out their substance.
He has kept among us, in times of peace, Standing Armies without the Consent of our legislatures.
He has affected to render the Military independent of and superior to the Civil Power.
He has combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to our constitution, and unacknowledged by our laws; giving his Assent to their Acts of pretended Legislation:
For quartering large bodies of armed troops among us:
For protecting them, by a mock Trial from punishment for any Murders which they should commit on the Inhabitants of these States:
For cutting off our Trade with all parts of the world:
For imposing Taxes on us without our Consent:
For depriving us in many cases, of the benefit of Trial by Jury:
For transporting us beyond Seas to be tried for pretended offences:
For abolishing the free System of English Laws in a neighbouring Province, establishing therein an Arbitrary government, and enlarging its Boundaries so as to render it at once an example and fit instrument for introducing the same absolute rule into these Colonies
For taking away our Charters, abolishing our most valuable Laws and altering fundamentally the Forms of our Governments:
For suspending our own Legislatures, and declaring themselves invested with power to legislate for us in all cases whatsoever.
He has abdicated Government here, by declaring us out of his Protection and waging War against us.
He has plundered our seas, ravaged our coasts, burnt our towns, and destroyed the lives of our people.
He is at this time transporting large Armies of foreign Mercenaries to compleat the works of death, desolation, and tyranny, already begun with circumstances of Cruelty & Perfidy scarcely paralleled in the most barbarous ages, and totally unworthy the Head of a civilized nation.
He has constrained our fellow Citizens taken Captive on the high Seas to bear Arms against their Country, to become the executioners of their friends and Brethren, or to fall themselves by their Hands.
He has excited domestic insurrections amongst us, and has endeavoured to bring on the inhabitants of our frontiers, the merciless Indian Savages whose known rule of warfare, is an undistinguished destruction of all ages, sexes and conditions.
In every stage of these Oppressions We have Petitioned for Redress in the most humble terms: Our repeated Petitions have been answered only by repeated injury. A Prince, whose character is thus marked by every act which may define a Tyrant, is unfit to be the ruler of a free people.
I am for swift, aggressive, and overwhelming response to any peoples or state who do us harm or seek to do so. I do see a large group of conservatives willing to cede freedom to the state for "emergency" purposes, on the idea that we can stroll back over and expect the state to surrender it back to us when the "emergency" is over. The fact that it has been done before is NOT, imo, a legit argument. I would also submit that "saving the union" (aka preserving the government) was not a legit reason to go to war (although slavery WAS a legit reason). I see nothing sacrosanct about preserving this or any state, if the freedoms guaranteed by the state do not exist. However, that is a horse to beat at a different time.
The scattergun accusation of "fascist" does not belong to you, and I am sorry for the pellets sprayed your way. However, suspending personal freedoms so that we can deal with a bunch of unwashed 60s rejects and their murdering raghead empathizers DOES enable the fascists on the left and the right. Far easier to do a state department search for expired visas, and institute some kind of "anti-jihad" pledge to those here on legit visas. Then, if they are involved in flakey activity, we just tell them they violated the terms of their visa and deport them. Suspending habeas corpus for legit citizens is like using an impact wrench to adjust the thermostat. Way too much firepower for the job.
I get nervous when the state says it needs to keep an eye on them, er, us, uh, well, you know what I mean. I just don't trust em, whether they invite gay rights advocates or bible believing preachers into the White House. Danger is ultimately the same.
So were they not an inadvertent tool of the Confederacy?
Who says it isn't true?
Lincoln started the ball rolling...
The Yankee Army didn't have to worry about losing men, as they signed up every Irishman & German that stepped off "the boat"......The Confederacy had to deal with a loss of manpower.
Really? Tell us how.
BTW. Just a point of fact. Immigration into the US during the Civil War was markedly decreased.
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