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To: billbears
Well actually until late 1775, and Paine's pamphlet, Washington was fighting more for a stalemate and less for independence. Until Common Sense there is an argument that many saw reconciliation still as a possibility

In the words of Jefferson...

Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed.

Now who exactly was pushing for full and complete Revolution in 1775? (before anyone had even heard of Tom Payne).

It was another one of you enemies --- that dastardly John Adams.

Bill, with all due respect, you devotion to a pack of mid 19th Century slave driving aristocrats who were willing to break the nation and who categorically rejected the founding documents....

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness
... has driven you to the point that you can even call Washington "luke warm" to Independence and creates this artificial Satan in the form of Hamilton, I'd suggest you should reexamine you fundamental premises.

You do realize, I hope, that the "founders" of the Confederacy ridiculed that basic statement of our values and said the Jefferson was wrong. They had to reject what the Revolution was about in order to justify their "institution" which had long since passed the stage of 'unpleasant necessity" that the Framers faced in 1787 and moved into the "positive good" (and positively profitable) rational. Rejecting the founding principles was then their only option.

Hamilton was not a saint. Nor were Washington, Jefferson or Adams. They were all fallible humans doing the best they could through the circumstances under which they lived. I would never attack any of them based upon what seceding generations have done to the institutions they founded.

But if we were to take your 'model' which was the lineage of the Confederates --- the Jeffersonian agrarian model where wealth in land holdings were the future, vs. the Hamiltonian-Clay model that allowed for a multifaceted economy -- agricultural, commercial and industrial, I'd say the US today would have been another Mexico and we would all be figuring out how the hell to get into Canada.

History has vindicated Hamilton. But because of your blind devotion to the Lost Cause Mythology, you are forced to reject plain facts.

And again. As a young man, Hamilton actually ran Red Coats through with his bayonet while at the same time, Jefferson poked at them from a distance with his quill.

They both served, in different ways but to question Hamilton's patriotism is beyond silly and to somehow lay FDR, the New Deal or the Great Society madness on Hamilton is just flat stupid.

111 posted on 03/20/2007 5:54:50 PM PDT by Ditto (Global Warming: The 21st Century's Snake Oil)
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To: Ditto
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness

Seeing as you're quoting the original document of secession let's go a bit further down that same paragraph

That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

You quote all around it and yet somehow miss that bit.

--- the Jeffersonian agrarian model where wealth in land holdings were the future, vs. the Hamiltonian-Clay model that allowed for a multifaceted economy -- agricultural, commercial and industrial, I'd say the US today would have been another Mexico and we would all be figuring out how the hell to get into Canada.

Yes and tax the citizenry for their own good to build this system. Considering taxation of the citizens of the separate and sovereign states at this level would be foreign to the Framers, you can't very well argue they would have advocated what it took to build Hamilton's 'dream'.

History has vindicated Hamilton.

Actually it hasn't. We are finally facing the logical end to Hamilton's view. A nation that is dependent upon more and more taxation whose infrastructure is failing because the government can't keep it up. What's the government solution? More programs and more laws to collect funds to pay for it. However Hamilton's plan taken to its logical conclusion creates nothing but political slush funds, as the 'illustrious country lawyer' and his friends could attest to if they were still alive. The corruption from the railroad system alone would be enough to send any current politician to jail.

But because of your blind devotion to the Lost Cause Mythology, you are forced to reject plain facts

And what 'plain facts' would those be? That the 'American System' was rejected out of hand by many? That it bankrupted every state internal improvements were tried? That all states had flatly outlawed such programs by the middle of the 19th century? Or that the 16th President's economic policy was forced down the throats of the nation at the barrel of a gun? Or the fact that a National Bank had been tried, more than once, and failed?

And again. As a young man, Hamilton actually ran Red Coats through with his bayonet

His desire for adventure or desire for monarchy is not in question.

while at the same time, Jefferson poked at them from a distance with his quill.

But yet you'll selectively quote from him to make your argument.

They both served, in different ways but to question Hamilton's patriotism is beyond silly and to somehow lay FDR, the New Deal or the Great Society madness on Hamilton is just flat stupid.

No, not at all. Except that FDR's programs, Johnson's Great Society, and Bush's government waste (of which there is apparently no end) are the logical next steps in Hamilton's 'American System'. A citizenry that looks to one centralized power for handouts and leadership. Fortunately, for us, he didn't get his king. Well he didn't. But the way the general public looks to DC, we may yet one day.

112 posted on 03/20/2007 6:37:14 PM PDT by billbears (Those who do not remember the past are condemned to repeat it. --Santayana)
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