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[Idaho gun shop] Red's loses its gun license
magicvalley.com/Times-News (Idaho) ^ | 3/14/07 | Cassidy Friedman

Posted on 03/16/2007 9:50:21 AM PDT by kiriath_jearim

TWIN FALLS - Red's Trading Post, one of Idaho's oldest gun shops, can trade no longer.

The U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives has revoked the business's license to buy, trade or obtain guns after an ATF audit found Red's employees sold guns improperly numerous times between 1999 and 2004.

Red's manager, Ryan Horsley, admits when the business sold guns it sometimes left blank required parts of a gun purchase form, omitted a background check on a special order, failed to log multiple handgun sales to the same customer in five working days, did not keep track of guns returned to manufacturers, threw away denied applications dealers are required to keep for 20 years and failed to post a gun safety sign and pamphlets.

The ATF revoked Red's license March 5, shutting down 90 percent of the income that has sustained the store through three generations of Horsleys.

"They are taking very minor things and blowing them out of proportion," said Terry Horsley, the shop's owner and Ryan's mother.

The shop, at 215 Shoshone St. South, can sell the 1,000 guns remaining in its inventory, and can continue selling gun accessories and ammunition.

But accessories account for only 10 percent of its revenue.

"I'm just sitting here going, 'What am I going to do?,'" Ryan Horsley said.

The five-year audit found violations over a period in which 10,000 guns were sold, Horsley said.

"Mistakes happen. Stuff happens," Horsley said. "I think it's unreal expecting to have 100 percent non errors."

The bad news, which comes on the heels of record profits, could now close the store, Terry Horsley said.

Red's has paid $20,000 in legal fees protesting the ATF's decision. On Feb. 23, Red's legal team filed a petition in federal court in Boise.

The judicial review will consider, among other things, whether Red's "willfully" violated the law.

"'Not willful' is one of their petitions," said Deborah Ferguson, assistant U.S. attorney, representing the ATF's industry operations. "'Willful has been defined by case law. I would expect the court to look at that legal authority."

Case law defines "willful," an essential component of the allegations, as "they knew of the regulations and did not abide by them," Ferguson said.

Ryan Horsley said Red's was found responsible of several violations in an earlier audit.

But he said the infractions are petty and do not justify a revoked license.

"There's no missing guns," he said. "There are errors but everyone has errors."

Walt Sinclair, a Boise co-counsel for Red's, said the errors were clerical, not intentional.

He said it's not the first time the ATF has revoked the license of a Twin Falls gun dealership.

"Blue Lakes Sporting Goods lost its license," Sinclair said. "They had been there forever. It was a family business. It was a real success story, but this type of petty, technical noncompliance caused them to end up going out of business."

The ATF has 60 days from Feb. 23 to respond Red's petition.

The ATF Seattle Field Office spokeswoman declined to comment on Red's case until after judicial review.

"If the individuals reapply, the facts from the revocation would be considered for any future licenses," said spokeswoman Julianne Marshall. "Industry Operations will consider their application. However, they have an interest for public safety. This license was revoked for a reason."

A judge may still overturn ATF's decision.



TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Crime/Corruption; Government; US: Idaho
KEYWORDS: banglist; jackboots
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To: E. Pluribus Unum


This is the new ATFE tactic, find violations no matter how slight, and then work their administrative court steps.

I cannot believe anyone is dumb enough to think that this is a good thing.

Fine him? Certainly, but to jump from "failure to file proper form for 5 pistol purchases in a 7 day period" to "Revoked license" is draconian.


21 posted on 03/16/2007 10:12:02 AM PDT by padre35 (I am from the "let's stop eating our own" wing of the Republican Party)
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To: Dave thA
Red's manager, Ryan Horsley, admits when the business sold guns it sometimes left blank required parts, of a gun purchase form, omitted a background check on a special order, failed to log multiple handgun sales to the same customer in five working days, did not keep track of guns returned to manufacturers, threw away denied applications dealers are required to keep for 20 years and failed to post a gun safety sign and pamphlets.

There are more than six violations here...

22 posted on 03/16/2007 10:12:20 AM PDT by Virginia Ridgerunner ("Si vis pacem para bellum")
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To: Virginia Ridgerunner
Sounds to me like this guy needed to lose his dealer's license if he in fact violated all of these federal regulations and laws.

C'mon. You know and I know that all these regulations are in place so that licensed gun shops can get screwed by the government down the road. The ATF is your typical government bureaucracy that throws common sense out the window and make sure gun shops abide by arcane rules and laws. That's why a lot of mom-and-pop gun shops have went out of business because they couldn't afford to keep up with the massive compliance regulations.

23 posted on 03/16/2007 10:14:47 AM PDT by Extremely Extreme Extremist (Good night Chesty, wherever you are!)
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To: mad_as_he$$

Your choice, but, whether for good or ill, the NRA and the Gun owners of America are the faces of the legal American firearm-owning community and pretty much set the standards for legal firearm ownership.


24 posted on 03/16/2007 10:15:48 AM PDT by Virginia Ridgerunner ("Si vis pacem para bellum")
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To: NorthFlaRebel
You have any proof for your claim that there has been a 90% reduction in gun dealers in the past 15 years?

Why Gun Dealers Have Dwindled

Drop in FFL numbers in the 1990's.

25 posted on 03/16/2007 10:16:01 AM PDT by E. Pluribus Unum (Islam is a religion of peace, and Muslims reserve the right to kill anyone who says otherwise.)
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To: tcostell
I agree, but if the guy wanted to be in the business he needs to follow the rules.

But the supposedly more competent legislators are not supposed to uphold/honor the constitution? Politicians created the problem and are to be held accountable, not the gun dealer being defrauded by politicians.

26 posted on 03/16/2007 10:18:17 AM PDT by Zon (Honesty outlives the lie, spin and deception -- It always has -- It always will.)
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To: Virginia Ridgerunner

What other businesses are routinely and forcibly shut down for good by the federal government over trivial and infrequent paperwork mistakes? This isn't a case of selling High Points and Lorcins a case at a time to out of town diversity or losing AR-15s out of the back room, it's one in a thousand paperwork oversights. If any of this had any ties to violent crime, you can bet it would have made the mainstream press by now.


27 posted on 03/16/2007 10:18:18 AM PDT by CGTRWK
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To: tcostell
No sympathy from me on this one.

Yeah whatever. You're one of them "the law's the law!" types. You would have been laughed at back in the Continental days.

28 posted on 03/16/2007 10:18:45 AM PDT by Extremely Extreme Extremist (Good night Chesty, wherever you are!)
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To: E. Pluribus Unum
I'm sympathetic to your view, but until we change the laws, you have to follow them.

I'm not a gun dealer, but I am in a highly regulated business with a lot of arcane rules, and complex licensing and registration requirements and I am in absolute compliance with every single one of them.

Like the BATFE, many of the rules are pointless and occasionally reps from our industry try to change them. But so long as the rules are the rules, we abide by them 100%.

29 posted on 03/16/2007 10:18:50 AM PDT by tcostell (MOLON LABE)
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To: ccmay

You make for a good little serf.


30 posted on 03/16/2007 10:20:06 AM PDT by Zon (Honesty outlives the lie, spin and deception -- It always has -- It always will.)
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To: Extremely Extreme Extremist

I wholly agree, dude, and believe me, I'm no fan of the BATF or its onerous policies and its new 'gotcha' modus operandii. But, I don't see this guy's losing his dealers' license as a 2nd Amendment issue. It's more in the legislative realm, and it SHOULD be the jobs of the legislators to reign in the BATF on this stuff. But unfortunately, the law is the law here, and I know of several very good gunshops in my area that follow these rules to the letter and have no problems. He didn't and now he's out of business!


31 posted on 03/16/2007 10:21:38 AM PDT by Virginia Ridgerunner ("Si vis pacem para bellum")
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To: Virginia Ridgerunner
I'm not trying to be a wise guy but the ATF is a tax collection division of the federal gov.

Read "Unintended Consequences" and read the history of ATF enforcement and their goal to destroy gun dealers.
It opened my eyes!

32 posted on 03/16/2007 10:21:52 AM PDT by Zathras
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To: Virginia Ridgerunner
Nobody's infringing anything in this case.

Nobody can have 100% compliance with BATFE paperwork. Over the years, as they squeeze out more dealers, they will be able nit-pick the remaining ones until there are none left.

The reduction in the number of FFL dealers has already affected competition. Gun prices are getting higher all the time, for no reason other than competition is going away.

Pricing guns out of the reach of ordinary citizens is infringing their 2nd Amendment rights.

33 posted on 03/16/2007 10:23:20 AM PDT by E. Pluribus Unum (Islam is a religion of peace, and Muslims reserve the right to kill anyone who says otherwise.)
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To: CGTRWK
What other businesses are routinely and forcibly shut down for good by the federal government over trivial and infrequent paperwork mistakes?

Smaller-scale Defense Contractors who do shoddy record keeping...

34 posted on 03/16/2007 10:24:25 AM PDT by Virginia Ridgerunner ("Si vis pacem para bellum")
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To: Virginia Ridgerunner
"the NRA and the Gun owners of America are the faces of the legal American firearm-owning community and pretty much set the standards for legal firearm ownership."
Gee and here I thought the constitution did that. This attitude about or from the NRA/GOA is what stops me from being more active in either organization.
35 posted on 03/16/2007 10:27:29 AM PDT by Durus ("Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." JFK)
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To: E. Pluribus Unum
And I believe what you and the author of one of those pieces do not - that most people who let their license lapse did not need them in the first place and were not real dealers.

Some of you sure talk tough behind a keyboard, but I suspect you follow all applicable buying/selling gun laws.
36 posted on 03/16/2007 10:29:41 AM PDT by NorthFlaRebel
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To: E. Pluribus Unum
The BATFE has run 90% of gun dealers out of business in the past 15 years,

Huh, I havent seen any evidence of that.

Im not sticking up for BATF here but I find that claim incredulous

37 posted on 03/16/2007 10:30:45 AM PDT by mylife (The Roar of the Masses Could be Farts)
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To: Zathras

Agreed. But again, it is Congress' job to reign in the BATF. Unfortunately though, our wonderful voting public keeps resending enough gun-grabbers back to the Hill every election cycle so that nothing ever gets done. Ultimately, and I hate to say this, it is the people's fault for letting the BATF get out of control with this agenda.


38 posted on 03/16/2007 10:32:40 AM PDT by Virginia Ridgerunner ("Si vis pacem para bellum")
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To: mylife
Im not sticking up for BATF here but I find that claim incredulous

Why Gun Dealers Have Dwindled

Drop in FFL numbers in the 1990's.

39 posted on 03/16/2007 10:32:51 AM PDT by E. Pluribus Unum (Islam is a religion of peace, and Muslims reserve the right to kill anyone who says otherwise.)
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To: kiriath_jearim
Oh, Red's. Used to live about 20 miles from there and I've probably been in the place a hundred times. You'd have to know it to understand what this really means - it isn't just a gun store, it's a general/second-hand/junk store too with some of the dangedest stuff you've ever seen in its inventory. Purchased a rifle for my late Dad in there once back in The Day. At the time they seemed pretty thorough to me.

I can't speak to the specifics of this case, of course, but I can say that it was one of the coolest stores I've ever patronized. I'm hoping they get their license back.

40 posted on 03/16/2007 10:33:24 AM PDT by Billthedrill
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