Marines bogged down by Rules of Engagement at Haditha [Lt. Col. Chessani's Attorney Speaks Out]

OneNewsNow.com ^ | March 13, 2007 | Chad Groening

[RedRover]

An attorney representing the commander of the American troops involved in the so-called "Haditha massacre" says the military rules of engagement have become so subjective that troops must look over their shoulders before they can fight the enemy. Brian Rooney is with the Thomas More Law Center, which is representing Lieutenant Colonel Jeffrey Chessani, a Marine officer charged with failing to investigate fully the events at Haditha, Al Anbar, Iraq and failing to report a Law of War violation.

Rooney says the Marines involved acted properly during the November 19, 2005, incident that led to the death of 15 Iraqi civilians. "If there's a hostile act against a Marine or hostile intent against a Marine, you can use deadly force to counter that hostile act or hostile intent," he explains.

But unfortunately, sometimes the determination "becomes subjective to who's observing it from the outside [as to] whether or not the Marines acted reasonably or not," the lawyer notes. In these instances, he says, it depends on who is doing the observing.

Ironically, Chessani had an attorney on the scene, who is also in trouble, as "he's been charged himself, Captain Stone, with dereliction of duty and -- I believe -- orders violations," Rooney points out. "So it's out for everybody, this politically charged investigation that has occurred," he says.

An Article 32 hearing for Colonel Chessani is scheduled for March 21. Rooney is confident his client did not do anything wrong. And it is unfair, the Law Center spokesman suggests, to try to judge the reasonableness of the Marines actions after the fact, removed from the context of the situation the soldiers faced in the Haditha incident.

One simply "can't do that," the attorney insists. "You have to go from the mindset of the Marine at the time, with what's going on," he says, "because, ultimately, you may end up killing civilians and you not mean it; but with what's going on in your mind at the time, you could be acting quite reasonably."

Rooney says the military's rules of engagement have become so subjective that it is increasingly difficult for troops to do their job in battle. The Thomas More Law Center , a national public interest law firm based in Ann Arbor, Michigan, announced March 6 that it would be defending Lieutenant Colonel Chessani against the military's charges in what has become a highly politically charged case.

[spunkets]

"Whether I'm familiar or not with how press releases are generated does not take away the possiblity of mistakes in reporting- whereever or however it may have happened It still does not translate into murder charges. "

If any mistakes were made, they'd have to be overlooked by many people in a few different sections. Mistakes were not made by anyone above SSgt Wuterich, who was responsible for the action itself. Of course filing false reports doesn't equate to having committed some other crime. Whatever other evidence the prosecution has applies also. The total is why they made the charges.

"I doubt we're going to change each other's minds on presumption of guilt or innocence at this point. I'll presume they are innocent. You can choose for yourself."

This isn't court, I'm not the prosecutor, and I'm not attempting to convict. I'm commenting on the story. I originally commented on the Lt Col's defense atty's comment that this all resulted from ROE problems. None of it does, especially the predicament his client's in. His client's in the hot seat, because he failed to do his duty.

[jwh_Denver]

ROE's are for sports not wars.

[Girlene]

Finally, we come full circle back to ROE's. I stated my thoughts on that earlier. :-)

[gardencatz]

Also, considering how much TIME has had to back track on the story and how utterly twisted we know the AP can be, it's entirely possible the reporting was bad. It's not like the press supports the troops or anything. I'm constantly blown away by how many freepers who joined in the late 90's sound just like DU'ers. Thanks for sticking with the conversation. I'm incredibly biased so have a hard time being objective about this but continue to learn with each new thread.

Cindie

[RedRover]

Did I say anyone was guilty of anything, other than failure to investigate and SSgt Wuterich's filing of a false after action report?

Other than that? Gee, I don't know. Who else do you say is guilty without knowing all the facts?

We'll see what comes out in court.

You also have the nerve to accuse Lt Pantano of ruining his career by being "unprofessional". I'd stack his fitreps against yours any day.

I'm reminded of Lincoln's comment about Grant when told the general drank. To paraphrase, let's spread Pantano's kind of unprofessionalism throughout the Corps and win this war.

NCIS blew the Pantano investigation. The only winner was our enemy.

NCIS didn't take statements from those who stood up for him. NCIS took the word of an unfit Marine against the lieutenant's and built their investigation on that.

The autopsy report didn't clear him. The report showed that one terrorist was shot in the back and the other in the front. Had the report arrived during the trial, the government would have built their case on one of the two being shot in the back.

You're living in a fantasy world. NCIS is riddled with liars and thugs. Look at the Lt Phan case. Three Marines signed affadavits that their statements had been falsified. The NCIS agent responsible for the statements left the country to avoid testifying under oath.

Wait and see, spunk. The truth may surprise you.

[IDontLikeToPayTaxes]

You don't have a blanking clue what you are talking about. GWB is a da*n fine CINC for every warrior out there. He stands firmly behind our military and understands our goal is victory. Plain and simple.

He cannot micromanage the bureaucracy that thrives within the military (and it most certainly does). He can't wish it away.....

That these Marines are being charged as they are is foolishness and wrong. But they have not been convicted of anything.....There is no action for the President to take right now....except to let the process play out....while staying focused on the bigger picture of the larger WOT (which he is doing everyday).

Bulls**t. Bush is the President of the United States and the Commander in Chief. He could make some phone calls and this would go away quite quickly.

I think the Border Agents, Scooter Libby, and the Haditha Marines are getting royally screwed because Bush basically "checked out" about a year and a half ago.

Bush immediately after Sept 11, 2001:

Bush in March, 2007:

[RedRover]

...the DOD paid those families for the wrongful deaths.

This has been incorrectly cited on Leftwing sites as proof of guilt for months. You're flying with the moonbats, spunk.

[spunkets]

Re: the DOD paid those families for the wrongful deaths.

This has been incorrectly cited on Leftwing sites as proof of guilt for months.

It is correctly cited as proof that those ~15 killed in the first 2 houses were noncombatants.

" You're flying with the moonbats, spunk.

Whatever.

[spunkets]

Re: Did I say anyone was guilty of anything, other than failure to investigate and SSgt Wuterich's filing of a false after action report?

"Other than that? Gee, I don't know. Who else do you say is guilty without knowing all the facts?"

The Corps said Chessani failed to investigate. He was relieved of command, because of it. According to reality, a false press release was generated. According to the Corps and investigators the false press release was generated on the false after action report of SSgt Frank Wuterich. All of that is already established.

"We'll see what comes out in court. You also have the nerve to accuse Lt "

I don't think you care what comes out in court. As with your inability to grasp what went on in the Pantano case, you're bound and determined to disregard reality, in preference for fantasy. A fantasy that includes the Corps as conspirators to further the interests af terrorists and their commie pals in the US.

"You also have the nerve to accuse Lt Pantano of ruining his career by being "unprofessional"."

That's correct.

"I'd stack his fitreps against yours any day. I'm reminded of Lincoln's comment about Grant when told the general drank. To paraphrase, let's spread Pantano's kind of unprofessionalism throughout the Corps and win this war."

Whatever.

"NCIS blew the Pantano investigation. ...The autopsy report didn't clear him. The report showed that one terrorist was shot in the back and the other in the front. Had the report arrived during the trial, the government would have built their case on one of the two being shot in the back."

BS, and there was no trial. Maj Gen Huck decided there was no evidence that supported the charges.

"NCIS didn't take statements from those who stood up for him.

There was no one else with anything relevant to testify to.

"NCIS took the word of an unfit Marine against the lieutenant's and built their investigation on that.

NCIS and the Corps were presented with a fit Sgt making accusaitons against a fit Lt.

"You're living in a fantasy world. NCIS is riddled with liars and thugs."

Whatever.

" Look at the Lt Phan case."

5 of the defendants in that case plead guilty to kidnapping and conspiracy, and have agreed to testify against those, including Phan who face murder charges in the incident.

"Three Marines signed affadavits that their statements had been falsified. "

Does that included the guilty pleas? Does it include retraction of the confessions made htat they pulled the Iraqui out of his house, killed him a half hour later, then planted evidence, and followed that up with false field reports? Hmmmm... Did the bitch set them up?

[spunkets]

Sorry I was mistaken. Lt Phan wasn't involved in the case I was thinking of and wrote about.

[RedRover]

Does that included the guilty pleas? Does it include retraction of the confessions made htat they pulled the Iraqui out of his house, killed him a half hour later, then planted evidence, and followed that up with false field reports? Hmmmm... Did the bitch set them up?

No. As usual, you don't know what you're talking about.

That's not what the Lt Phan case is about.

But whatever, right? Later, pal.

[spunkets]

"No. ... That's not what the Lt Phan case is about."

Lt Phan was their platoon leader. The case against Phan includes whether, or not he overheard a conversation regarding the murder, by those involved in the murder conspiracy. It has been recommended to Lt Gen Mattis, that the NCIS agents be investigated for fabricating false affidavits and that Lt Phan face court martial.

"As usual, you don't know what you're talking about."

Whatever.

[Girlene]

Hey, spunkets, why did you write this?

.."I don't think you care what comes out in court. As with your inability to grasp what went on in the Pantano case, you're bound and determined to disregard reality, in preference for fantasy. A fantasy that includes the Corps as conspirators to further the interests af terrorists and their commie pals in the US."...

Are you saying if we punish the accused we'll show the terrorists and/or Iraqis we're fair and balanced? If so, I don't agree. We will show the terrorists and/or Iraqis they can play us in this cases. I think we'll get more, not less, of these accusations if they are found guilty of the preferred charges from the Haditha incident.

Why are you so adamant the Marines in Haditha lied? Do you know some inside info from NCIS or troops from Camp Blue Diamond that you can share?

[spunkets]

"Are you saying if we punish the accused we'll show the terrorists and/or Iraqis we're fair and balanced?"

It is unjust to punish the accused. It is only just to punish the guilty.

"I think we'll get more, not less, of these accusations if they are found guilty of the preferred charges from the Haditha incident."

Any charges are based on American law, based on American values, are presented by American prosecutors, and are heard and tried in an American court. The Iraq action was taken to deny an enemy of the US an industrial base an safe haven, and to turn it over to those Freedom loving and peacable Iraqis, that were formerly subjugated under the tyranny of criminals engaged in both regional and international criminal activity. The United States expects and demands, that that action be lawful in all elements of intent and operation. Any charges that any element of that action is unlawful will be properly dealt with, according to due process of law, not political, or popular sentiment.

"Why are you so adamant the Marines in Haditha lied?"

I never used the plural, nor did I say SSgt Wuterich lied. I said SSgt Wuterich filed a false after action report, and that field report is the basis for the false press release. Lying requires a conscious act with the deliberate intent to knowingly decieve others. No evidence regarding that has been released either way. The Corps will have to make a determination regarding what evidence they have. Again, I made my comments on this thread regarding Chessani's atty's comments, regarding ROE, which are irrelevant. Chessani failed to do a proper investigation of the false field report matter and the incident.

[RedRover]

spunks, you're missing the point about Lt Col Chessani's defense team.

Chessani's lawyers are speaking up for all eight Haditha Marines. I admire Chessani's decision to do so. He's standing up for his men.

[spunkets]

"Chessani's lawyers are speaking up for all eight Haditha Marines. I admire Chessani's decision to do so. He's standing up for his men."

Chessani should have acted before, immediately upon notificaiton and realization, that a problem existed. His atty is now performing a BS act to a public audience for sympathy. BS that has nothing to do with the incident whatsoever. There was nothing in the ROE that were a problem here. As far as Wuterich and those involved in the shooting goes, they shot up at least 2 houses and killed 15 noncombatants. Tossing the grenades in the window was fine, but the entry team shot those people at close range, no return fire, or weapons present, and they were mostly women and children. To top that off, SSgt Wuterich filed a false field report regarding the incident, saying they were killed by the IED, that killed Lance Cpl Terrezas.

It should have all been straightened out by Lt Col Chessani and those involved immediately. That is his duty. Ignoring what appears to be unlawful action is not.

[RedRover]

Why is the government wasting time on a legal process when General Mattis could just get all the facts from you? You obviously have infinite wisdom. You see all and know everything that happened, right? From the safety of your home.

I'll continue to give these the Marines the presumption of innocence. I'd do the same if your son or daughter was involved.

[SevenMinusOne]

As I said before. You don't have a clue what you are talking about. You've watched way too much TV and have clearly no understanding how the real world works.

[SevenMinusOne]

And don't bring up any "border agents" BS. They were lawfully convicted in a court of law. They recklessly and foolishly lied about discharging their weapons....

We do not live in a police state (thank God). Law officials cannot go around firing their weapons and they trying to cover up such actions.

Do I think their sentences were to stiff? Somewhat, yes. But the notion that those two border agents did nothing wrong is incorrect.

[IDontLikeToPayTaxes]

As I said before. You don't have a clue what you are talking about. You've watched way too much TV and have clearly no understanding how the real world works.

You're right. A handful of Captains and Majors call the shots with the ROE and the UCMJ, and the CINC is powerless to stop it.