Romney says government was wrong in Schiavo case

St. Petersburg Times ^ | March 11, 2007 | Adam C. Smith

[EternalVigilance]

TAMPA -- He's campaigning hard for support from Republican social conservatives, but presidential candidate Mitt Romney said Saturday he disagreed with the government's intervention in the Terri Schiavo case.

"I think it's probably best to leave these kinds of matters in the hands of the courts," Romney said in a television interview airing today.

[Celtjew Libertarian]

Wrong. Florida Law specifically states that no one has the right to make any medical decision intended to cause the death of another. Even the guardian may not make such a decision on behalf of his/her ward. The decision is left entirely to the individual. In the absence of written instructions, signed by the individual, and notarized, the individual's wishes may be determined by clear and convincing evidence that the individual voiced their wishes in the presence of credible witnesses.

I am unsure of the letter of Florida law. However, I work for an intensive care unit, in Florida, as a medical transcriber and have seen the practice.

In nine years I have seen and typed up the notes for dozens of tragic cases, where families have had to decide whether to withdraw care on young adults, who having expected a long life never clearly stated what their wishes would be in a such a situation. I have seen the decisions made both to attempt to keep the person alive and to withdraw care.

[T'wit]

>> "Well, Dr. Carnahan is a rehabilitation doctor who has the patient in front of him, who physically examines the patient and then looks for physical findings and symptoms based on his knowledge of rehabilitation medicine. And I'm not a rehabilitation-medicine physician, so I wouldn't be able to comment on this document because it is outside of my area of knowledge."

Dr. Walker is talking here (very appropriately) about some other document, somebody else's work, not about the bone scan report that he himself prepared. The part I quoted was about his own work, about which he could and did speak with confidence.

It was, indeed, Dr. Carnahan who ordered the check for trauma because Terri suffered great pain in rehab. Dr. Walker did find traumas and did forcefully refute the suggestion of heterotrophic ossification at that date -- only thirteen months after Terri's unexplained injury. One would hardly be surprised about heterotrophic ossification being diagnosed fifteen years later.

>> If she had been that badly hurt, if the hot spots on the scan were all fractures, where were the bruises? The lacerations?

Sorry, Doc, "ifs" aren't evidence. I told you, I have scant patience for if-then reasoning. It is the tool of fallible persons wielding fallible reasoning based on uncertain, ignorant or false premises -- fast paths to error. If you have medical records or other positive information that Terri had no traumas, present it. Guesses don't answer.

Dr. Carnahan DID say she was hurt, that's not in question. Dr. Walker DID confirm multiple traumas, at least to a high probability.

We do have an unexplained body on the floor, you know. By Department of Justice statistics, domestic violence is the number one cause of injury and death in young women. It is a bit of a stretch to claim that Terri suffered, for instance, a near-fatal arrhythmia, ever so conveniently, right after her husband came home late one Saturday night.

[T'wit]

>> He never said she could see, at least in the quote you posted. Is there more?

I'm sorry -- who? Dr. Hejkal? I quoted the full text. The report was as given, that Terri had "some deficit in her visual field." This part was not necessarily a quotation, though it summarized things he did say.

The wording he chose certainly suggests that she could see to some limited degree. His point, after all, was to question the claim of cortical blindness, because it cannot be reliably ascertained postmortem.

The material I looked at continued on to quote six or seven other doctors critical of other features of the autopsy report (but they do not touch the question of cortical blindness).

[retMD]

>> If she had been that badly hurt, if the hot spots on the scan were all fractures, where were the bruises? The lacerations?

Sorry, Doc, "ifs" aren't evidence. I told you, I have scant patience for if-then reasoning. It is the tool of fallible persons wielding fallible reasoning based on uncertain, ignorant or false premises -- fast paths to error. If you have medical records or other positive information that Terri had no traumas, present it. Guesses don't answer.

There are medical records - xrays of many of the bones in question that show no fractures. The medical records from paramedics, nurses and doctors in the emergency room and hospital. X-rays are a much better indicator of fracture than bone scans. Dr. Walker, in the testimony posted, said there are "30 or 40 things that could cause abnormal bone scans of this wide nature." Not anywhere near as definitive as an x-ray. That scarcely makes reliance on x-rays a "guess." Interesting again that you are demanding I prove a negative. Better, before accusations of battery and even murder, that you prove a positive.

It is a bit of a stretch to claim that Terri suffered, for instance, a near-fatal arrhythmia, ever so conveniently, right after her husband came home late one Saturday night.

"He came home late, and she had a cardiac arrest" is scarcely proof.

Dr. Carnahan DID say she was hurt, that's not in question.

I'm not aware of that - please link. All I heard about was the scan request with "evaluate for trauma" on it. And that he later diagnosed the joint problems as heterotrophic ossification on the basis of the scan.

[retMD]

I would disagree - without testing her himself, it would be surprising that he would assert she could see. He acknowledges a deficit, but does not say that she could see. I would want to see exactly what he said, but destruction of the visual cortex is pretty definitive.

[T'wit]

>> Michael had an EXTREME grudging hatefullness against Terri's parents, and he did a lot to spite *them*...

Michael has admitted all of that.

[T'wit]

>> it would be surprising that he would assert she could see

I agree. He couldn't know that.

[T'wit]

>> I'm not aware of that - please link.

Not sure what more I can give you than that he ordered the scan because Terri was in great pain from his rehab.

I remember reading more than that, a good while back, but wouldn't know where to look now. (There is a LOT of material from these fifteen years.) If I find anything, I'll holler.

[T'wit]

>> There are medical records - xrays of many of the bones in question that show no fractures.

Have you examined these? I would love to get them posted.

>> The medical records from paramedics, nurses and doctors in the emergency room and hospital.

... may or may not be of much value. ER's have a particularly dismal record of spotting DV cases, even though they are bound by law to report them. The hospital was by and large concerned to stabilize Terri and was not looking for internal injuries. As you noted, the compression fracture at L1 would be peculiar for a domestic violence case. (But by no means to be ruled out.)

>> "He came home late, and she had a cardiac arrest" is scarcely proof.

It is quite ridiculous :-) "He came home and assaulted her," however, is the obvious suspicion and statistically the most likely scenario. By Occam's Razor, it is the hypothesis that must be eliminated before you bother looking anywhere else.

[T'wit]

>> He [Hejkal] acknowledges a deficit,

Everybody does.

[supercat]

I have seen the decisions made both to attempt to keep the person alive and to withdraw care.

If a patient is on a ventilator and it is removed, the patient will usually die from the whatever condition prevented normal breathing. Occasionally, however, the patient will defy expectations and start to breathe without the machine. A doctor who stuffed a pillow in a patient's face after disconnecting the ventilator would be prosecuted for murder; the fact that the patient most likely would have died anyway does not authorize the doctor to ensure that outcome.

In Terri's case, Michael et al. not only ordered that the feeding tube be removed, but they also forbade any effort to allow Terri to receive liquid by mouth. Whether or not such efforts were likely to work, there was no legitimate basis for refusing them. Nor, for that matter, was there any logical basis except to ensure that Terri would die even if she were capable of accepting oral sustenance.

[achingtobe]

1. The issue in state court, based on state law, was whether Terri Schiavo had evidenced an ntendtion not to continue life support. (ie, a medical directive many of us have)

2. The dumb judge had no evidence of that intent other thsn her husband and that was not enough,

3. That error does not grant her a right to go to federal court or for the gov't to pass a special law just for her (and not others similarly situated) to have access to federal courts.

4. The fact of the matter here is that the lorida courts got it wrong but that is how the system works in a reoublic of sovereign states.

[EternalVigilance]

Florida Constitution
ARTICLE 1

SECTION 2. Basic rights.--All natural persons, female and male alike, are equal before the law and have inalienable rights, among which are the right to enjoy and defend life and liberty, to pursue happiness, to be rewarded for industry, and to acquire, possess and protect property; except that the ownership, inheritance, disposition and possession of real property by aliens ineligible for citizenship may be regulated or prohibited by law. No person shall be deprived of any right because of race, religion, national origin, or physical disability.


US Constitution
Fifth Amendment

No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

Fourteenth Amendment

Section. 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

[T'wit]

"The autopsy goes on to say that Terri's brain was 'profoundly atrophied' and only half the normal size. Fine. If that's what the experts tell us, there is no problem believing them. But what does that mean, that she was only half human, only half a person, or that she had only half the rights the rest of us have? That is a conclusion we must never accept. That is a conclusion that does not come from autopsy but from a callous disregard for human life.

"Terri did not die from atrophy of the brain. She died from atrophy of compassion. Too many people, starting with Michael, were unwilling to accept the fact that profoundly injured people require profound compassion and care. Even if the autopsy showed that Terri was ten times more damaged than she was, our moral obligation to respect and protect her life would not change at all. We don't have to pass a test to qualify for our human rights. An autopsy is a measure of physical damage, not human rights.

"The autopsy says Terri was blind. That is not the morally relevant point. The point is that we are blind -- blind too often to the fact that even the disabled and the severely injured have the same dignity and worth as the rest of us, and show forth the image and glory of God even in their brokenness."

-- Father Frank Pavone

[BykrBayb]

There's a related part of the Fourteenth Amendment that some people like to deny exists.

5. The Congress shall have power to enforce, by appropriate legislation, the provisions of this article.

[EternalVigilance]

Great point.

We need to bring that out A LOT more.

[BykrBayb]

Father Pavone's physical stature is slight, but he's one of the biggest men I've ever met.

I'm outa here. Have a good night.

[EternalVigilance]

Amen.

[Gelato]

If she had been that badly hurt, if the hot spots on the scan were all fractures, where were the bruises?

The cause of Terri's collapse remains a mystery, even more so since the autopsy found no indication an eating disorder, despite her husband's claim.

Regardless, what does this have to do with whether or not it was right to kill Terri Schiavo?

She had a right to live.

[MHGinTN]

"The autopsy says Terri was blind. That is not the morally relevant point. The point is that we are blind ..." I asked a retired MD who defends the state execution of Terri: 'Would dehydrating a person to death shrink the brain?" The retired partisan would not respond.