Posted on 03/01/2007 8:30:44 PM PST by blasater1960
I concur.
...something that you might want to look at.
http://www.sinhedrin.com/
And I agree with the rest of what you wrote.
Psalm 6
A Prayer in Time of Trouble
1 Don't punish me, LORD, or even correct me
when you are angry!
2 Have pity on me and heal my feeble body.
My bones tremble with fear,
3 and I am in deep distress.
How long will it be?
4 Turn and come to my rescue.
Show your wonderful love and save me, LORD.
5 If I die, I cannot praise you or even remember you.
6 My groaning has worn me out.
At night my bed and pillow are soaked with tears.
7 Sorrow has made my eyes dim, and my sight has failed
because of my enemies.
8 You, LORD, heard my crying,
and those hateful people had better leave me alone.
9 You have answered my prayer and my plea for mercy.
10 My enemies will be ashamed and terrified,
as they quickly run away in complete disgrace.
Psalm 32
The Joy of Forgiveness
1 Our God, you bless everyone
whose sins you forgive and wipe away.
2 You bless them by saying,
"You told me your sins, without trying to hide them,
and now I forgive you."
3 Before I confessed my sins, my bones felt limp,
and I groaned all day long.
4 Night and day your hand weighed heavily on me,
and my strength was gone as in the summer heat.
5 So I confessed my sins and told them all to you.
I said, "I'll tell the LORD each one of my sins."
Then you forgave me and took away my guilt.
Psalm 38
A Prayer in Times of Trouble
1 When you are angry, LORD, please don't punish me
or even correct me.
2 You shot me with your arrows,
and you struck me with your hand.
3 My body hurts all over because of your anger.
Even my bones are in pain,
and my sins 4are so heavy that I am crushed.
5 Because of my foolishness, I am covered with sores
that stink and spread.
6 My body is twisted and bent, and I groan all day long.
7 Fever has my back in flames, and I hurt all over.
8 I am worn out and weak, moaning and in distress.
9 You, LORD, know every one of my deepest desires,
and my noisy groans are no secret to you.
10 My heart is beating fast.
I feel weak all over, and my eyes are red.
11 Because of my sickness,
no friends or neighbors will come near me.
12 All who want me dead set traps to catch me,
and those who want to harm and destroy me
plan and plot all day.
13 I am not able to hear or speak a word;
14 I am completely deaf and can't make a sound.
15 I trust you, LORD God, and you will do something.
16 I said, "Don't let them laugh or brag because I slip."
17 I am about to collapse from constant pain.
18 I told you my sins, and I am sorry for them.
19 Many deadly and powerful enemies hate me,
20 and they repay evil for good because I try to do right.
21 You are the LORD God!
Stay nearby and don't desert me.
22 You are the one who saves me. Please hurry and help.
Psalm 51
A Prayer for Forgiveness
1 You are kind, God! Please have pity on me.
You are always merciful! Please wipe away my sins.
2 Wash me clean from all of my sin and guilt.
3 I know about my sins,
and I cannot forget my terrible guilt.
4 You are really the one I have sinned against;
I have disobeyed you and have done wrong.
So it is right and fair for you
to correct and punish me.
5 I have sinned and done wrong since the day I was born.
6 But you want complete honesty,
so teach me true wisdom.
7 Wash me with hyssopa
until I am clean and whiter than snow.
8 Let me be happy and joyful!
You crushed my bones, now let them celebrate.
9 Turn your eyes from my sin and cover my guilt.
10 Create pure thoughts in me
and make me faithful again.
11 Don't chase me away from you
or take your Holy Spirit away from me.
12 Make me as happy as you did when you saved me;
make me want to obey!
13 I will teach sinners your Law,
and they will return to you.
14 Keep me from any deadly sin. Only you can save me!
Then I will shout and sing about your power to save.
15 Help me to speak, and I will praise you, LORD.
16 Offerings and sacrifices are not what you want.
17 The way to please you
is to feel sorrow deep in our hearts.
This is the kind of sacrifice you won't refuse.
18 Please be willing, LORD, to help the city of Zion
and to rebuild its walls.
19 Then you will be pleased with the proper sacrifices,
and we will offer bulls on your altar once again.
Psalm 102
A Prayer in Time of Trouble
1 I pray to you, LORD! Please listen.
2 Don't hide from me in my time of trouble.
Pay attention to my prayer and quickly give an answer.
3 My days disappear like smoke,
and my bones are burning as though in a furnace.
4 I am wasting away like grass, and my appetite is gone.
5 My groaning never stops,
and my bones can be seen through my skin.
6 I am like a lonely owl in the desert
7 or a restless sparrow alone on a roof.
8 My enemies insult me all day,
and they use my name for a curse word.
9 Instead of food, I have ashes to eat and tears to drink,
10 because you are furious and have thrown me aside.
11 My life fades like a shadow at the end of day
and withers like grass.
12 Our LORD, you are King forever
and will always be famous.
13 You will show pity to Zion because the time has come.
14 We, your servants, love each stone in the city,
and we are sad to see them lying in the dirt.
15 Our LORD, the nations will honor you,
and all kings on earth will praise your glory.
16 You will rebuild the city of Zion.
Your glory will be seen,
17 and the prayers of the homeless will be answered.
18 Future generations must also praise the LORD,
so write this for them:
19 "From his holy temple,
the LORD looked down at the earth.
20 He listened to the groans of prisoners,
and he rescued everyone who was doomed to die."
21 All Jerusalem should praise you, our LORD,
22 when people from every nation meet to worship you.
23 I should still be strong,
but you, LORD, have made an old person of me.
24 You will live forever! Years mean nothing to you.
Don't cut my life in half!
25 In the beginning, LORD, you laid the earth's foundation
and created the heavens.
26 They will all disappear and wear out like clothes.
You change them, as you would a coat,
but you last forever.
27 You are always the same. Years cannot change you.
28 Every generation of those who serve you
will live in your presence.
Psalm 130
Trusting the LORD in Times of Trouble
1 From a sea of troubles I call out to you, LORD.
2 Won't you please listen as I beg for mercy?
3 If you kept record of our sins, no one could last long.
4 But you forgive us, and so we will worship you.
5 With all my heart, I am waiting, LORD, for you!
I trust your promises.
6 I wait for you more eagerly
than a soldier on guard duty waits for the dawn.
Yes, I wait more eagerly
than a soldier on guard duty waits for the dawn.
7 Israel, trust the LORD! He is always merciful,
and he has the power to save you.
8 Israel, the LORD will save you from all of your sins.
Psalm 143
A Prayer in Time of Danger
1 Listen, LORD, as I pray!
You are faithful and honest and will answer my prayer.
2 I am your servant. Don't try me in your court,
because no one is innocent by your standards.
3 My enemies are chasing me, crushing me in the ground.
I am in total darkness, like someone long dead.
4 I have given up all hope, and I feel numb all over.
5 I remember to think about the many things
you did in years gone by.
6 Then I lift my hands in prayer, because my soul is a desert,
thirsty for water from you.
7 Please hurry, LORD, and answer my prayer.
I feel hopeless.
Don't turn away and leave me here to die.
8 Each morning let me learn more about your love
because I trust you.
I come to you in prayer, asking for your guidance.
9 Please rescue me from my enemies, LORD!
I come to you for safety.a
10 You are my God. Show me what you want me to do,
and let your gentle Spirit lead me in the right path.
11 Be true to your name, LORD, and keep my life safe.
Use your saving power to protect me from trouble.
12 I am your servant.
Show how much you love me by destroying my enemies.
You might want to read this in particular.
Semicha and Sanhedrin Controversies of the 16th and 21st Centuries
Rabbi Yirmiyohu Kaganoff
(origninally in Yated, USA, 24JUN05)
http://www.sinhedrin.com/files/history/semicha_sanhedrin_controversies.html
You said -- "This has some pretty profound geopolitical implications, and it is the the first time that I've heard such a public call for it."
Well, those who look at Bible Prophecy (and believe that what God says will happen -- will actually happen), have been waiting for that to come around.
The Jews who believe that this is coming soon -- have already been engaged in gathering together all the necessary items for the Temple being reconstructed. The solid gold one-piece Temple Menora has already been made. Other Temple furnishings have been construction and are in storage, right now. Other Temple instruments have been and are being made right now. Much is in storage, waiting for the construction of the Third Temple.
This is a quote from http://www.thirdtemple.com/IntroductionToThirdTemple.html
"The absolute 101% fact is that 'The Third Temple' will be built. It is only a matter of time now. Granted, the real estate (Har-Ha-Byet, The Temple Mount) is a little bit difficult today due to our lack of joy and unenlightened approach to life which can be repaired in an instant, so we have begun the construction in a different medium. A small but important part of the foundation has been built already. Our current goal is to get the entire Jewish People and the rest of the world turned on to the idea and reality of 'The Third Temple'. We aim to do this through The Third Temple¨ internet portal, enlightened Torah learning, love of the Land of Israel and the sale and distribution of quality products with the'Third Temple'¨ trademark logos."
Here is a picture of the solid gold Menora --
http://www.thirdtemple.com/OldCity/menorah24k_1.htm
http://www.thirdtemple.com/OldCity/menorah24k_3.htm
Here is the web site of the Temple Institute, who had the Menora made (plus all the other work they are doing on the other things needed for the Temple to be constructed and the sacrificial system to start up once again).
http://www.templeinstitute.org/
Yep, soon you will be seeing the construction of the Third Temple and the start of the Jewish sacrificial system once again.
The location of the Third Temple is a question. There are three locations given (today) that I know about. One is at the Dome of the Rock and the other two are to the north and to the south of it. I personally bellieve it's the location immediately to the north of the Dome of the Rock, facing the Golden Gate to the east.
We'll see, soon enough....
Regards,
Star Traveler
You said -- "Any religious text, and I don't care what, that demands sacrifice (animal/ human/ alien..) to me is not the word of God. Period."
Well, the Bible specifically requires it. In fact, it says that without the blood there is no sacrifice. And God instituted the sacrificial system with Moses in the wilderness and it continued through to the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD.
The first sacrifice that was required was by the hand of God, in the Garden of Eden, in killing that first animal, because of the sin of Adam and Eve. The last sacrifice needed is shown to be that of Jesus Christ, as His sacrifice was once and for all, after that.
However, the Bible also makes it clear that there will be the reinstitution of the Temple Sacrifice during the time of the Tribulation, at which time the Antichrist will put a stop to it -- at the midpoint of the Tribulation. That's why many Christians have been looking for the coming of these events. They've known it was coming pretty soon.
At any rate, in regards to "sacrifice" the New Testament writers made it clear that this sacrificial system looked forward to the day of Jesus Christ and His sacrifice on the cross, which was also in His own blood. And that's why you hear references to the "blood of the Lamb" in connection with Jesus.
You're obviously not a Christian if you don't know that. It's all clearly supported and was commanded by God's word, as anyone with a cursory knowledge of the Bible can see.
Regards,
Star Traveler
You said -- "I'm fully behind them. I hope that it happens soon."
Well, I know that it's supposed to happen, but that doesn't mean that I'm behind it. It's simply a sign of what is soon to come, as far as I'm concerned. And for Christians, any re-institution of the Temple sacrificial system, to be used in the same way as it was back in Jesus' day would be bad news (in terms of its significance to Jesus' sacrifice).
But, even so, and with that being said, that Third Temple (which is not here yet) will be most likely destroyed during the Tribulation. And, after that time, there will be a *Fourth Temple* -- which will be the Millennial Temple, or what is referred to as Ezekiel's Temple. That is totally unlike the prior Temples and has never been constructed before, so it is yet to come (as Ezekiel gives it).
That Millennial Temple will not be for the re-instituting of the prior sacrificial system as it was used long ago -- but rather as a commemoration of the real sacrifice that it pointed to, which is Jesus Christ, who will be resident upon this earth during the Millennium and the time of Ezekiel's Temple.
Regards,
Star Traveler
ChicagoHebrew is correct (not that he needs someone like me to confirm that). Jewish people (and non-Jewish followers like myself) pray for forgiveness for sins--especially for intentional sins.
The ancient canard stating that Jews must obey every law perfectly or burn in hell is just that: a very old lie. And the Roman version of "hell" is not even from Judaism.
You said -- "It's 2007 and some barbaric psychopath wants to appease the Sky God by slaughtering a living creature."
Well, this so-called "Sky God" is coming back out of the sky and will be saying to you that either you will have accepted the *blood sacrifice* of His Son, Jesus Christ -- or -- it will be *your own blood* which will pay for your own sins.
It's your choice... (your blood or His..., take your pick)...
Regards,
Star Traveler
You said -- "There is no difference, though I personally do not condone either."
Well, I happen to think that lamb is yummy... Tastes good to me...
Regards,
Star Traveler
Um....why would the *Antichrist* put a stop to the "Temple Sacrifices"?
Christ is the one who put a stop to them through his Sacrifice.
If anything, the Antichrist should preside over them.
By the way, I'd *love* to see some Biblical support for your ideas....
revelation chapt 13 bump
You said -- Um....why would the *Antichrist* put a stop to the "Temple Sacrifices"?
Well, there reference to it in Daniel (chapter 9, I believe), in Matthew (chapter 24) and a reference that Paul made. I think I saw someone else in this thread quote the reference in Daniel. With Jesus, you'll find it as the "abomination of desolation". And then with Paul, he says that he stands in the temple and declares himself to be God.
So, why would he put a stop to the sacrifices? I really don't know because the Bible actually doesn't say why. It just says that he does. I suppose we could try guessing why, but I've never wanted to engage in that -- and so, I simply accept what the Bible says is going to happen (and leave it at that).
You also said -- "Christ is the one who put a stop to them through his Sacrifice."
Well, that's certainly *not* true. You see, the sacrifices continued all the way up to the destruction of the Temple in 70 A.D. Christ was gone long before that time (from 30 to 33 A.D. depending on who you ask). So, Christ didn't actually put a stop to the practice. It was the Roman legions who put a stop to the sacrifices.
What Christ did, though, was make the sacrifice in the Temple of no effect (for one's sins) -- even though the sacrifices continued for *many years* after Christ had been taken up.
And likewise, it will be of no effect, even though it will start up again, when the Temple is rebuilt.
As far as the support, the places I referred to are the primary areas of support in regards to that Temple and the Antichrist putting a stop to the sacrifices. For more detailed reading of all that is involved in understanding this -- you can find ample material about this for your own reading in many Christian bookstores, which will go into it in much detail for you.
Regards,
Star Traveler
You forgot about the red heiffer. A rancher in Texas has been contracted to create a breed of unblemished red heiffers and has been successful in doing so, although the location of the ranch has been kept secret for fears of reprisals by Israel's enemies.
They have reconstituted everything necessary for the sacrifice ritual: the instruments, the apparel, the prayers, the procedures, and the red heiffer.
There is a good article at:
yourarmstoisrael.org
select: "a must read"
pull up: Article 29/"The Final End Time Beast"
print and save for future reference.
There are many, many different types of sacrifices (incidentally, the vast majority of sacrifices weren't animals, they were offerings of grain, incense, oil, flour, and first fruits), and each had their own purpose, including:
Daily offerings given as a sign of continued, perpetual devotion to God;
Thanksgiving offerings -- presented by people to give thanks for recovering from major injuries and illnesses;
Peace offerings -- voluntary offerings meant to seal contracts, give thanks, support the Priests and Temple;
Nazarite offerings -- given following completion of a Nazarite vow;
Pesach -- performed in remembrance of the Exodus from Egypt;
First fruits offerings -- effectively a religious tax designed to support the Temple and Priesthood;
Were their sin and guilt offerings (such as in Leviticus 9:7 )? Yes -- but they functioned only to provide atonement for unintentional sins, as is made clear in the earliest compilations of Temple law and rituals, Jewish tradition, and Tanakh commentary.
Redemption for intentional sins was always through prayer, charity and good works (see, among other things, Psalms 32:5, 51:16-19; 2 Chronicles 7:14).
The idea that the sacrifical system atoned for all sin is totally foreign to Judaism. It is a Christian myth created to justify their belief that the death of Jesus (a man who, yes, accomplished basically nothing) had somehow "supplanted" the need to do good works and follow the law.
The means whereby this was accomplished is propitiatory, substitutionary and vicarious in nature. It is redemptive (Eph 1:7) in that the shed blood of Christ purchases slaves to sin in the marketplace (agaradzo I Cor 6:20; Rev 5:9), and it purchases out of the slavemarket (exagoradzo Gal 3:13), and it free's the prisoner (lutroo Titus 2:14; I Pet 1:18-19).
The sinner is redeemed from something, having been previously slaves in the slave market of sin. The sinner is redemmed by something (Jesus purchasing us with his blood), and the sinner is redeemed to something, i.e. taking us out of the market, untying the bonds, liberating and freeing us.
It must be understood that a sinner is anyone who transgresses in any part against the holy standard of infinite righteousnes as defined by the 10 Commandments. No man but one could ever hope to fullfil the entire law as initially set forth by the hand of God in stone. The second time, Moses wrote down what was dicteted to him. That is so poetic. Anyways I digress.
The matter is wholly that of legal requirements pertaining to the punishement of the accused who have been found guilty. Satan is our accuser, and God is the Judge and delivers sentance for the crime of sinning against God's Holy righteousness. God being the offended party, is also a infinitely jealous and infinite anger stems from that. Hence, he demands infinite justice: eternal punishment and separation from Him.
In God's eyes, as supreme judge and arbiter of all matters of the universe, all those transgressing His laws have been ruled to be guilty. This is not an emotional issue, this is a legal issue. The sinner is guilty whether they feel guilty or not. Ask any person in jail and they'll all tell you they're innocent (even the most egregious and vile father raper and mother stabber). This is an objective and not a subjective term.
However, legally, the punishment can be mitigated through expiation, that is if somebody else takes the punishment. Furthermore, it must be a propitiatory expiation, in that it must be satisfying to the offended. And intrinsically, whatever propitiatory expiation is made must be sacriicial, i.e., it must be somthing of precious value to the offended.
Furthermore, the sinner convicted in their sin, are slaves of Satan, and only a ransom of sufficient size can redeem them. The attonment by Christ fullfills a commercial obligation, and the legal requirement stipulated by God's justice. Redemption is confered upon the convicted and not the accuser (or offended party).
First off, a redeemer must be a blood relative and kinsman. Jesus was a true man in every sense). Secondly, the redeemer must be able to redeem. Because the sinner has transgressed against God, only God can redeem the the guilty. And lastly the redeemer can not be in the same predicamet as the one to be redeemed (Heb 7:26). The redeemer must be willing to redeem (Jn 10:17-19), must actually carry out the redemptive act.
The atonement is vicarious in nature, because as it is written in Jn 3:14, Jesus stated that all the sinner needs to do is look at the cross (akin to what those bitten by the fiery serpents had to do in the wilderness). no action by the sinner is required whatsoever, but to trust in the efficacy of God's Word itself. In fact, its even more simpler now than it was then, for we only need to figuratively look (in our mind's eye), and not have to physically go to Jeruasalem and gaze upon a cross (which doesn't even exist anymore anyways).
Chist's sacrifice of His unblemished holy life, in our stead, redeems us, confers forgiveness and remission of the charges levied against us, establishes a declaration of inherent righteousness (this is not acquital, but dismissal of all charges, i.e. justification), and reconciles our relationship with God (not the reverse).
There can be no remission of sin without the shedding of blood. The essence of life is contained in the blood. In Ex 25:17-22 and Lev 16:15-19 we see OT example of propitation whereby the blood sacrifice was sprinkled upon the Mercy Seat (the lid of the Ark of the Coventant), God pictured in His holiness and guardianship by overshadowing cherubim, saw his broken law through the shed blood and was fully satisfied.
When the first and second temple were built, the high priest entered the Holy of Holies once per year (and no more than that) to perform the sacrificial ritual. The high priest had to be absolutely purified according to Jewish Law as laid down by The Law (10 Commandments), in addition to the Lesser Law (all 650+ commandments). The priest entered with bells on their robes, and a rope tied around their leg. Only one priest was allowed into the Inner Sanctum at a time once per year. If the priest wasn't properly purified, or performed the ritual incorrectly, he was instantly struck dead. When the belss stopped ringing, the priests outside would pull their hapless collegue back out, and they'd have to go through the whole process again.
This transpired every year for thousands of years (with a hiatus between the first and second temples). However, at Christ's crucifiction, the veil, that was reported to having been as thick as a mans hand, and about 3 1/2 stories high, was rent from top to bottom. At that moment, even the lowest sheep dung shoveler could look directly into the very depths of the Holy of Holies. What the Jews did subsequently is immaterial, in that the whole temple was destroyed about 30 years later.
That the temple sacrifice is going to be reestablished at some point is a non-starter. Will the sacrifice be efficatious? No. When John the Baptist said, "Behold! The Lamb of God, that has come to take away the sins of the world!", every Jew that was present knew exactly what he was talking about. And at the very moment that he said that, lambs were being sacrificed throughout Israel.
Every knee shall bow...
The question is whether it bends voluntarily or involutarily. Woe be to those in the latter category.
And the Roman version of "hell" is not even from Judaism.Maybe so, but Gehenna and Sheol are.
Many comments about sin and redemption on this topic that attempt to compare Christian and Jewish understanding of sin fail to appreciate an important distinction.
Christianity is based on the individual accepting Christ to receive God's unconditional promise.
Judaism is based on God's promise to the Hebrew nation which in turn agreed to be obedient to God.
When individuals sinned in the OT, the result was separation from the community. Further, sins of others brought corporate responsibility and corporate need to atone for sin. The Mosaic covenant was with the entire nation.
When individuals sin in the NT, avoidance of separation from God depends on the individual accepting Jesus's redemptive act. God's covenant in Christianity is with the individual.
Direct comparisons in doctrine on sin, redemption, hell etc that do not consider the distinction between the individual and the nation will fail.
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