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To: leenie312; AnalogReigns; Wycowboy; familyop
The verses you've identified describe sacrifices (that cover redemption for unintentional sins, not intentional sins.

There are many, many different types of sacrifices (incidentally, the vast majority of sacrifices weren't animals, they were offerings of grain, incense, oil, flour, and first fruits), and each had their own purpose, including:

Daily offerings given as a sign of continued, perpetual devotion to God;

Thanksgiving offerings -- presented by people to give thanks for recovering from major injuries and illnesses;

Peace offerings -- voluntary offerings meant to seal contracts, give thanks, support the Priests and Temple;

Nazarite offerings -- given following completion of a Nazarite vow;

Pesach -- performed in remembrance of the Exodus from Egypt;

First fruits offerings -- effectively a religious tax designed to support the Temple and Priesthood;

Were their sin and guilt offerings (such as in Leviticus 9:7 )? Yes -- but they functioned only to provide atonement for unintentional sins, as is made clear in the earliest compilations of Temple law and rituals, Jewish tradition, and Tanakh commentary.

Redemption for intentional sins was always through prayer, charity and good works (see, among other things, Psalms 32:5, 51:16-19; 2 Chronicles 7:14).

The idea that the sacrifical system atoned for all sin is totally foreign to Judaism. It is a Christian myth created to justify their belief that the death of Jesus (a man who, yes, accomplished basically nothing) had somehow "supplanted" the need to do good works and follow the law.

56 posted on 03/02/2007 2:09:57 AM PST by ChicagoHebrew (Hell exists, it is real. It's a quiet green meadow populated entirely by Arab goat herders.)
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To: ChicagoHebrew
The idea that the sacrifical system atoned for all sin is totally foreign to Judaism.

I agree. According to OT scripture, ALL men are always sinners

Psalm 14:2

The LORD looks down from heaven upon the children of men,
To see if there are any who understand, who seek God.
3 They have all turned aside,
They have together become corrupt;
There is none who does good,
No, not one.

to justify their belief that the death of Jesus (a man who, yes, accomplished basically nothing) had somehow "supplanted" the need to do good works and follow the law.

Paul agrees with you

Ephesians 2:8

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

According to the Psalmist we can never do good works. According to Paul that through Christ we can do good works because of God's workmanship and preparation in advance for us. If doing good works is what you believe is central to salvation, then Hebrew scripture denies that it is possible for any man to be good. However, if you firmly believe that good works is central for your salvation then according to Christianity, the only way for any of your works to be good is for them to be done in Christ as new creatures reborn by the holy spirit.

John 3

The New Birth

1 There was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. 2 This man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, “Rabbi, we know that You are a teacher come from God; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him.”

3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

4 Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?”

5 Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

9 Nicodemus answered and said to Him, “How can these things be?”

10 Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things? 11 Most assuredly, I say to you, We speak what We know and testify what We have seen, and you do not receive Our witness. 12 If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.[a] 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but[b] have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.”


64 posted on 03/02/2007 3:40:27 AM PST by Raycpa
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To: ChicagoHebrew

"The idea that the sacrifical system atoned for all sin is totally foreign to Judaism. It is a Christian myth created to justify their belief that the death of Jesus (a man who, yes, accomplished basically nothing) had somehow "supplanted" the need to do good works and follow the law."

Hmmmm, you're language is pretty offensive to Christians generally and to Jesus in particular.

The Christian understanding of ancient Judaism is really not far from yours. We understand the sacrificial system then, while central, never "atoned for all sin," (God alone can do that...) rather it foreshadowed a final sacrifice which actually would (for those who really believed it and lived a godly life). We also understand that, as the 10 Words (10 Commandments) point out, God's salvation (in that case, the physical saving of the people from Egypt) comes first, THEN out of a sense of gratitude, God's people obey Him, pray, and do acts of charity.

The reason Christians do not follow ritual parts of the Torah (sacrifices or keeping Kosher) is that the New Covenant teaches that these parts of the Torah were completed in the person and work of Jesus (hardly "nothing" accomplished, eh?). We also do not follow (though we can learn from) the civil/legal commands in the Torah intended for the ancient theocracy of Israel. So we understand the Torah laws as of 3 parts: Ritual, Civil and Moral.

Christians have always taught the Moral parts of the Torah are still required to be followed (even if always distinguishing between ritual/civil/moral is not totally clear). This is why there is an emphasis in traditional Christianity on the 10 Commandments, and its 2 roots: Love of God and Love of one's fellow man.

Reliance on the death of Jesus as the basis of forgiveness has never been taught as an excuse for moral laxness--that is libel against Christians and the Christian religion.

We simply do not believe that we EARN forgiveness before God by prayer or good works--that is understood as legalism. Good works and prayer are seen as the fruits of forgiveness, not its basis.


75 posted on 03/02/2007 7:06:03 AM PST by AnalogReigns
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