Posted on 02/27/2007 5:22:07 PM PST by VoiceOfBruck
More than 50 gun rights advocates protested police conduct during an incident at a city restaurant with some calling for the firing of several of the officers involved at Monday night's Manassas City Council meeting.
The public outcry comes two weeks after Springfield-resident Russ Troxel filed a complaint against the police department about an incident involving him and six friends who were openly carrying their weapons while dining at Tony's New York Pizza on Mathis Avenue on the evening of Jan. 13.
A second complaint was filed Friday by Fairfax resident Mark Anderson who states that among other things the officers overstepped their authority by "coercing" the owner of Tony's to kick them out after they had already been there for nearly an hour.
Philip Van Cleave, president of the Virginia Citizens Defense League Inc., asked at the meeting that three of the seven responding officers - Tina Pannell, Chad Hyland and Rickey Clodfelter - be reprimanded or fired.
Van Cleave said that as the supervisor at the scene, Pannell should have taken control of the situation and told the other officers that they were legally allowed to openly carry their weapons there.
"If the police can't do this right then we've got a big problem," he said.
The incident started with a 911 call from an unnamed man who reported that the men's guns were making him uncomfortable.
It was the initial antagonistic attitude of Hyland, who demanded IDs from the men even though they weren't committing a crime, and the officer's ignorance of the law that Troxel's and others said is unacceptable.
Troxel, who was among those who attended the meeting, said the officers also refused to accept paperwork documenting the state's open-carry law.
Police Chief John J. Skinner said he would like to comment publicly but can't because the complaints are part of an internal investigation.
The timeline for the investigation could be extended if new information or witnesses is revealed, he said, adding that he plans to discuss the new complaint with the investigator today.
The men say they were within their rights because Virginia law requires that weapons be carried in the open in places that serve alcohol.
And while carrying a concealed weapon requires a court-issued permit, no permit is required to carry a gun in the open.
The manager of Tony's has said that the men were asked to leave because of several complaints the restaurant received from regular customers.
In Anderson's complaint, he also says that one of the officers cursed at him "repeatedly" throughout the incident.
At least two of the officers refer to the men "assclowns" and "retards" in intradepartmental messages and e-mails that were obtained through a Freedom of Information Act request by Mike Stollenwerk, one of the founders of Open carry.org.
In an e-mail Clodfelter sent five of the other officers the day after the incident, he copied the state code that prohibits patrons from carrying concealed weapons in any place that serves alcohol and concludes that they were legally allowed to carry their guns openly that night.
In the same e-mail, Clodfelter also wrote: "My guess is the over-compensating assclowns at Tony's were hyper-aware of all this, and that's why they started crying like little babies when their event got spoiled by the whole 'let's get the owner to tell them to get the f-- out' thing."
Troxel and the six other men are members of a forum on Opencarry.org.
Skinner said he would release the findings of the internal investigation when it is completed.
This is also being discussed in the Virginia section of packing.org
http://www.packing.org/community/general/listview/21246
Hmm, was Rosa Parks there?
Police are not on your side. The Constitution is. Or should be.
do you think these officers were really ignorant of the law? I don't think so....
If they were truly ignorant to the law- they would have arrested them.
I think they are just bullies....with guns and badges...and that is EXACTLY why the 2nd Amendment is NEEDED.
In this Virginia county the police and sheriff's deputies are all over concealed carry and citizens' being armed. In the sheriff's office where I served for a while we made a point of congratulating people who applied for concealed carry permits. Some police are dopes. Certainly some Manassas police are dopes. You can say that about nearly any group, I'd guess. But please don't rag on all of us.
I think bullying accurately describes what's stated in the article.
I read the parts of the e-correspondence produced by the FOIA. I think they were unsure of the law -- as well as being bullies. It's pretty clear that one of them either checked into the law himself or asked someone else to, and to judge from the incredibly unprofessional and reprehensible e-correspondence the guy viewed open carry in a restaurant as a "loophole". Other police thought they were "trolling" for law suits. The whole thing is an embarrassment.
I emailed the chief the day I learned of this mess. About a week later he acknowledged my email and said he had started an IAD investigation already. Of course, if the good people of Manassas are anti-gun (and it IS northern VA) there may not be severe repercussions for the officers involved. But I'd bet $50 at even odds there will be at least one suspension. The chief's gotta know that the unprofessional emails make his whole department look like a bunch of thugs -- leaving aside the actual incident ....
I am not ragging on anybody. The police are not on the people's side. They do not exist to protect civil liberties, but to look to sanction citizens for infractions against the law. It doesn't make them bad people. They are for the most part great people, and I am honored to count several as good friends. But the Constitution is our only true ally.
Can't be much of a discussion since "cop bashing" must be integral to a discussion of this event.
Either we are equal or we are not. Good people ought to be armed where they will, with wits and guns and the truth. NRA KKK MA$$
"ignorance of the law."
IS NO EXCUSE.
Bump
The officers have every right to express themselves in any way they see fit. OTOH insulting the people who pay you is never a good idea, especially using computers paid for by those same people.
I think Manasas would be well served by these particular officers finding work in other fields.
The "poor, innocent, brainless" citizens went looking for trouble...and guess what??...They found it!!! Surprise, Surprise!! What idiots!!
Audio of 911 call that started it all:
http://www.vcdl.org/Tonys/Tonys_911.mp3
When another friend goes into a home where a domestic is happening and is put in a sleeper hold by a "strength is as the strength of ten because his mind is wacko [as Tennyson did NOT say]" bad guy after his partner is thrown across the room, I'll be sure to tell them that they weren't protecting the girl-friend who was crying for help. And when they themselves get sanctioned for shooting this crazy guy, and have legal fees and penalties which they cannot afford, I'll ask them why they didn't just write the guy a ticket and go home?
When I'm in court scoping a bad guy in civvies and without cuffs so that his civil rights won't be violated and depending on where I'm posted being alert for ways he might flee or ways he might assault the judge, checking for anything meaningful in the illegal exchange of winks and nods and mouthed words between him and his homies in the courtroom, and ready to block him with my aging body whatever he tries, I'll remember I'm just there to sanction him. My daily prayers for the courage to stop a bullet aimed at the judge were wasted, evidently, since all I really needed to do was stand aside and then haul out my summons book and sanction that bad boy.
Thanks for making that clear.
/sarc.
Seriously, that we cannot prevent every crime and are indeed not expected to, because, while the laws in this country are sometimes crazy they're not totally off the wall yet, I think you'll find that many cops DO think in terms of crime prevention and of protection. That our response is too often limited to a "sanction" is not sufficient to show that that's all we're about.
If you're speeding and you see a trooper, don't you slow down? Isn't that an effect of the first step on the "continuum of force", namely "being present"? If effective sanctions are provided, doesn't that tend to have a preventative effect, which leads to life, liberty, and property tending to be protected?
YEAH, it stinks. YEAH it's not as good as it could be. There are a lot of reasons for that, some systemic, some related to our society's preferring the subsidizing of bastardy, drug-abuse, and indolence before building prisons. But a lot happens without a summons or a warrant being issued. It just doesn't get in the papers, and if you're a reasonable prudent person, it doesn't affect your life that much so you don't see it.
The "poor, innocent, brainless" citizens went looking for trouble...and guess what??...They found it!!! Surprise, Surprise!! What idiots!!"
Actually, you're the idiot.
What they were doing is legal and they had every right to do it.
Well said, this guy must be a real jerk.
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