Posted on 02/16/2007 1:03:23 PM PST by SJackson
Heard the one about the Mormon President? The shaky prospects of Mitt RomneyGerard Baker There are so many minorities now in the crowded field for the 2008 US presidential election that daily news coverage of the race is starting to sound like one of those politically incorrect jokes from the 1970s. You’ll recall the kind: A woman, a black man, an Italian and a Mormon are in a plane over the ocean . . .
We have Hillary Clinton, credibly promising to be the first female to be President, Barack Obama, the first African-American in the White House, Rudolph Giuliani, the former New York Mayor, the first Italian-American (and occasional transvestite) to be President, and Mitt Romney, the former Massachusetts Governor, who launched his bid this week to be the first Mormon to get to the top.
Most of these potential firsts are lauded by commentators as representing great social and political progress. The exception is Mr Romney, whose potential breach of the infamous glass ceiling for members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is regarded with considerable misgivings.
In fact, while the consensus seems to be that Mrs Clinton and Mr Obama can overcome sexism and racism, it is considered more or less axiomatic that Mr Romney is in for a very hard time on account of his religion. On the face of it, this seems odd. If you’ve been brought up on a diet of the usual liberal media stereotype of America as a nation of woman and black-hating religious maniacs, you have a right to be puzzled when you hear that a devout God-fearing white man faces bigger hurdles than either a feminist or a liberal African-American. But as with everything in the US, it’s more complicated than that.
Mr Romney should be a highly appealing candidate. He has just finished his term as Governor of Massachusetts, where in the most Democratic state in the nation, he was an effective and quite popular Republican chief executive. He is clever and good-looking, and has made a ton of money for himself. He is completely untainted by any attachment to the awful foreign policy mistakes of the Bush Administration for the past six years.
But his religious problem is that to win the presidency he must first win the Republican nomination, a contest in which evangelical Protestants, especially in southern states, have a disproportionate influence. Evangelicals are deeply suspicious of Mormonism, which they regard as a heretical sect, and not even Christian in any proper sense of the term. They find the whole story of how Joseph Smith is supposed to have received a new set of scriptures and refounded the Christian church in America, how his followers drove westward, with their many wives and their curious underwear, all a bit strange (this, by the way from some of the same people who want it taught as a scientific fact that God created the world in precisely six days, Adam’s rib and all).
Popular conceptions about the Mormons do not help Mr Romney or his fellow believers either. Though the church officially forbids polygamy, it will never be able to dissociate itself from past practice. Some of its rituals also invite a nervous scepticism.
Mr Romney is battling to shake off the religious doubts. He insists that Americans care less about which brand of faith you practise than that you are a good and decent person who lives according to religious principles.
He tackles some of the concerns with good, self-deprecating humour. He once said in a debate over gay marriage that he believes that “marriage should only ever be between a man and a woman . . . and a woman . . . and a woman . . .” Privately, he has enjoyed pointing out that he, the supposed polygamy-loving Mormon, has been married to the same woman for 37 years, while his principal rivals for the Republican nomination have — so far — been married an average of 2.7 times each — the Catholic Mr Giuliani (three times), the Episcopalian Senator John McCain (twice) and the Baptist Newt Gingrich (three times).
What is especially odd about the Romney problem is that it is only recently that Mormonism seems to have become a political burden.
There have been Mormon candidates for the presidency in the past and it hardly came up as an issue. Senator Orrin Hatch from Utah — a bishop of the Mormon Church — ran for president in 2000. Senator Harry Reid, a Democrat of Nevada, and the Majority Leader of the Senate, is a Mormon. Mr Romney’s father, George, a Governor of Michigan, was for a time the leading contender for the Republican nomination in the 1968 election. It was not his religion that felled him then, but an infamous remark in a radio interview that he thought he had been “brainwashed” during a trip to Vietnam in 1967: a comment that, given what some deemed to be his slightly vacuous intellectual qualities, caused one commentator to note that his experience could not have amounted to more than a light rinse.
Religious-political prejudices have been overcome before, of course. Many Americans were once much more suspicious of Catholics. But John F. Kennedy proved that it’s perfectly all right to have papists govern, less I think because of his declaration that he would not take orders from the Pope, and more because in his frenetic extramarital activity he was able to demonstrate that he was really, deep down, reliably indistinguishable from any other politician.
In the end, I suspect the Mormon issue will not be the largest impediment to a Romney presidency. He has suspiciously changed his position on critical social issues, for example — when he was running for governor of heavily Democratic Massachusetts, he was pro-abortion; now he is running for the Republican presidential nomination, he says he is anti-abortion.
Iraq, too, could hurt him. So far his approach seems to be the Basil Fawlty strategy — “Don’t mention the war!” He gives long campaign speeches without a reference to Iraq. But in what looks likely to be a foreign-policy dominated election, he will surely not be able to get away with that, and his inexperience in the national security field will not help either.
In the meantime, expect to hear a lot more about Mormonism in the next year or so than you will ever learn from those nice, smart young men who come and knock on your door.
Classic LIBERAL tactic is ad hominem. Because you do not like my comments about Mormonism, you attack me personally challenging my conservative credentials. And the hysterical thing is my logic being questioned by someone who worships according to an historical liar. Any opinions on blacks not being accepted into your high priesthood until 1978? Have you been to the temple yet and gotten your special holy underwear that protects you from harm?
Seriously.
Let me be clear about this, you DO acknowledge that Jesus and Satan are brothers right? Even though Lucifer was an angel and not human nor divine?
Jesus is God. The Holy Spirit is God. God is God. Satan is not God. Jesus was also man at one point. Therefore Jesus and all mankind can logically be called brothers. Satan is a fallen angel and was never divine.
God does not have a human body. To suggest that he does is blasphemous. I am sorry that Mormons can't get over that. Mormons are not Christians any more than Muslims are.
LDS claims to be the one true Christian church and all other Christian churches are false. I know you like to be ticky tack about things, so I will go the extra mile and point out the entirety of it.
You want to sit here and call me illogical when you claim that the father of all lies is the brother of one who can never lie. That's some tight work. And yes I have spoken with many Mormons.
>>It's ironic that Mormonism is one of the few denominations today that preserves the
>>oldtime "Christian" values of morality, chastity, integrity, and the distinction between
>>right and wrong.
Thank you for your kind words. I am amazed at the number of people on a conservative forum, who would slap at fellow conservative for their religion. But I will not be offended if they will just cease to slander us and work together to put a conservative in as POTUS, then if we an agree to have a rational conversation about it, or agree to disagree, I am OK with that.
>>I am talking about what the Bible says, not what Mormon writings say.
LOL! We also believe the Bible to be the word of God, correct translation of course. At this point we reach a circular logic problem, LOL!
>>And you also know better than to think that all Mormon doctrine is in Mormon scriptures.
Kind of like the “Trinity”? It’s not in the bible anywhere (Do a search on “Trinity” in an online KJV Bible sometime, it’s not in there)
>>Is it not true that the ultimate goal of a Mormon is to become a god?
You men to become as Jesus is now? Yes that is our goal, to be as much like Jesus as we can. Is that not your goal also?
>>Is it not true that who you term as God was once a human according to Mormon doctrine?
That is not doctrine, but it is a topic of much discussion, as are many things that are considered “Mysteries” and that is a logical extension of the belief that we can become as he is.
>>Is it not true that Mormons believe Native Americans are a lost tribe of Isreal?
Yes, they left Israel before it was taken captive into Babylon, and were led by a prophet to the Americas. We know this from the record they left us, It’s called the Book of Mormon after the prophet who compiled it who was named Mormon.
>>Is it not true that Mormons consider Jesus and Satan as brothers?
We believe that all men were spirits before the world was created, and that Jesus and Satan and you and I were all created spiritually before the world was. Thus we are brothers of both Jesus, and Satan, and they are also brothers.
>>Is it not true that Mormons reject the Holy Trinity?
Yes, the Trinity is a construction that was added to Catholicism in 325 AD at the council in Nicea by Constantine, who was a pagan and was manipulating Christianity to help the Roman Empire. No, Mormons do not believe in the “Trinity” we believe what Jesus taught, and what the twelve believed.
>>Is it not true that Mormons believe that there was a civilization that rivaled that of Europe in North America?
I do not know about “Rivaling Europe”, but civilization defiantly.
>>Is it not true that up until 1978, black men were not allowed into the order of Melchizedek?
There is a long and complicated answer involving many points of doctrine you do not hold, but you are mostly correct on this one, will that do?
>>These are just a very few problems that I have with Mormonism, especially from my disaffected Lutheran convert friend.
So he became a Lutheran after being a Mormon? Or is he an ex Lutheran?
>>The fact of the matter is that I HAVE looked into your beliefs for myself and I also
>>happen to know that many Mormons, especially converts are not told of all the aspects
>>of Mormonism until they get deeper and deeper into the religion.
It is difficult to teach someone everything about a religion or a philosophy at once. I'm sure we may not start with what you think is important, but does any religion start with the complicated stuff? Don’t all religions start with the milk and progress to meat? Do the Catholics start with the sale of indulgences or the infallibility of the pope, or the transubstantiation of the Eucharist? You are looking for things to get upset about.
Hallelujah!
there is no doubt in my mind that the folks running that school are more likely to make it to heaven than I am.
If you profess in Jesus as your Savior, you don't have anything to worry about ;). It's a good thing that our salvation doesn't depend on us!
As for Mitt Romney, he sounds impressive and much more decent than the alternatives. However the liberals don't appreciate anything or anyone who is decent. They want the 'anything goes' candidate.
>>Classic LIBERAL tactic is ad hominem.
I was not aware that I called you a name, if I did, I apologise.
>>Because you do not like my comments about Mormonism, you attack me personally
>>challenging my conservative credentials.
I questioned your logic, and conservatism is supposed to be logical.
>>And the hysterical thing is my logic being questioned by someone who worships
>>according to an historical liar.
Got proof? Nope = Got nothing.
Any opinions on blacks not being accepted into your high priesthood until 1978?
>>Yep answered that on this thread already.
>>Have you been to the temple yet and gotten your special holy underwear that protects you from harm?
This is really pathetic, there are many religions that have special clothing, Jews wear yamica’s, prayer shawls, some priests wear a special collar, the pope and the cardinals wear special clothing, monks, nuns. All this "special clothing" is accepted by you without thought, but you want to talk about my underwear? OK, the “Underwear” is supposed to protect me by reminding me of the covenants I have made, one of which, is about chastity. Makes sense to me, then again,
I am not the one here being illogical here. Keep on accusin’ you make us look good by comparison.
>>Let me be clear about this, you DO acknowledge that Jesus and Satan are brothers right? Even though Lucifer was an angel and not human nor divine?
Oh, great, so now the biblical teachings we accept are proof we are not Christian?
Let me make this simple:
God created everything that he created spiritually, before he created it physically. Jesus was the first created, and god created all his children, then Jesus being the Chosen before the world was created all that we can see this world, and the entire universe. Lucifer, in the preexistence, rejected the plan of the father which included agency for all God’s children. There was a battle in heaven, and when Lucifer lost, he came here to fight against God’s plan by misleading all he can away from the light.
Are they brothers? Yes, and so are we, but just saying Jesus is Lucifer’s brother is to elevate Lucifer to a position I am not willing to agree to so it’s not a simple question as you would have others believe.
>>Jesus is God. The Holy Spirit is God. God is God. Satan is not God. Jesus was also
>>man at one point. Therefore Jesus and all mankind can logically be called brothers.
>>Satan is a fallen angel and was never divine.
I can agree with everything you just said, Satan is not divine, and never will be.
>>God does not have a human body.
So, what happened to the resurrected body of Jesus Christ? Was it a temporary resurrection?
>>To suggest that he does is blasphemous.
Jesus was often accused of Blasphemy, so I feel I am in good company here.
I am sorry that Mormons can't get over that. Mormons are not Christians any more than Muslims are.
Mormons’ believe in Jesus Christ, You have no power to affect my salvation, you cannot pry me away from the grace that will save me, no matter what you say, it cannot get between me and my savior. He is mighty to save and you are not involved in the salvation process. Ultimately the only thing that matters is what is in my heart, and whether or not Jesus Christ accepts me. You are not involved.
>>LDS claims to be the one true Christian church and all other Christian churches are false.
Yep, just like all the other Christian churches, Grin.
>>I know you like to be ticky tack about things, so I will go the extra mile and point out the entirety of it.
>>You want to sit here and call me illogical when you claim that the father of all lies is the brother of one who can never lie.
Yes, Jesus, Lucifer, and us, we are all brothers and God the Father is our father. Tell me, why did God create Lucifer? I mean if Lucifer was created to tempt man, does that not mean the God is ultimately responsible for sin? (Logic would say that this cannot be) so How did Lucifer become the father of lies? According to you?
>>That's some tight work. And yes I have spoken with many Mormons.
Yes but did you also listen? You seem to have picked out things you can hang on a wall, out of context and incompletely understood, and now you do not want to understand what you have preserved on your wall.
Be well, Go with God and study that which is before you, with prayer.
There is nothing unfounded about Mormon doctrine as heresy. You have every right to practice your religion, whatever it is. Just don't call it Christian. You are right that the political concerns we all have are more important than religious disagreements. WE are not the ultimate judge of those issues.
>>There is nothing unfounded about Mormon doctrine as heresy.
When people here state incorrect, and or incomplete doctrine, and do not source their assertions with anything more than their own assertion; it is by definition unfounded.
>>You have every right to practice your religion
Why thank you, I believe that was already granted to me in the Constitution.
>>Just don't call it Christian
Why not? We believe in Jesus Christ and look to him as the sole author of our salvation. We hold positions on doctrine that were debated in the early church do a little research for me, there was a guy, named Hippolytus, grandson of John the beloved, considered a great theologian in his day, he wrote ten books. Some of which survive to this day entitled a refutation of all heresies. It was considered to be the standard of Christianity in it’s day, and was used until Constantine Hijacked Christianity for his won ends. They agree with me far more than with you on the correct interpretation of the scriptures. Your charges of Heresy are not going to be accepted by me. I will merely assume that you are ignorant. Go to the catholic encyclopedia http://www.newadvent.org and do some searches, Start with the council at nicea (the first one) remember that Constantine was a pagan, then look up the books of hippolytus, read them, educate yourself, then we’ll talk.
>>You are right that the political concerns we all have are more important than religious disagreements.
Well said.
Go with God, just don’t denigrate that which you do not know about, nor understand.
Mormons believe that God is a physical being.
They believe that he was once a man like us.
They believe that the true Gospel was lost and that the Book of Mormon fills in what was lost.
They believe that Satan and Jesus are coequal in substance.
They have an adoptionist Christology.
Their theology is Manichean, Pelagian, and Monophysist.
Their theology is non Trinitarian.
They believe in baptising the dead and that Mormons achieve a higher level in Heaven.
Wany more?
These things have been written both in the Book of Mormon and by their theologians. Many Mormons don't even know what they believe.
Obviously the powers of the obvious...aren't endowed upon you.
Uh no, I as a Baptist do not believe that Baptists are the only one and true Christian church. Lutherans, Episcopalians, Methodists, Catholics et al, do not claim to be the one and only Christian church. Mormons do. You do not even know what you believe.
This is what Christians believe: A person can confess Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior on their death bed and gain entrance into Heaven. Not so with Mormons, you believe in different levels of Heaven and furthermore, you also believe there is no such thing as Hell. Mormons are blasphemers and just because Jews called Jesus a blasphemer does not make your blasphemy against him A-OK.
By the way, Ad Hominem attack is not simply name calling, it is attacking a person's character. You attacked my character. Therefore you attacked me personally rather than my position.
I never said Mormons weren't nice people. You can be nice all day long and still go straight to Hell. Good works will not get anyone in to Heaven. There are plenty of people that are Christian that don't act as well as Mormons do. Unfortunately this is a doctrine argument, not a who has the best record at being super nice to people argument. Forgiveness is not an exclusive trait to Christians. Mormons, Muslims, and just about all religions have some form of forgiveness.
So Mormons are really nice people. They also belong to a cult.
"What are they thinking?"
What makes you think they are thinking? Looks more like feeling and reacting, to me. It isn't logical, or thoughtful, or even sensible.
Look it up.
"Jesus and Satan are spirit brothers and we were all born as siblings in Heaven to them both." (Mormon Doctrine. p. 163.)
"God used to be a man on another planet..." (Joseph Smith, "Mormon Doctrine." Orson Pratt, "Journal of Discourses," vol 2, p. 345.)
Now, get this: "One of the most fallacious doctrines originated by satan and propounded by man is that man is saved alone by the grace of God; that belief in Jesus Christ alone is all that is needed for salvation." ("Miracle of Forgiveness," Spencer W. Kimball, p. 206.)
Calling yourself Christian and tossing in little out of context "proof texts" from the Bible is exactly what heretics and non-bel;ievers have done for centuries. Whatever Mormonism is, it is not remotely Christian in its doctrines. It is misleading and dishonest for Mormons to pretend they are Christian. Now, their salvation or not is God's business. We cannot speak to that. But, we can name heresy and false doctrine and call it what it is...nonsense.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.