Posted on 02/13/2007 3:02:27 PM PST by Jim Robinson
We have two major political parties in America. One is pro abortion, pro gay rights, anti first amendment, pro gun control, pro big government, pro big spending, pro illegal immigrant, pro environmentalism, pro United Nations, anti war.
The other is or is quickly becoming pro abortion, pro gay rights, anti first amendment, pro gun control, pro big government, pro big spending, pro illegal immigrant, pro environmentalism, pro United Nations, fading quickly on the war.
Huh?
sw
And those folks WOULD be with social conservatives, because most ARE social conservatives, if they could all be assembled under something that didn't have the "Republican" (or "Democrat") moniker attached to it.
Another example: pro-life Christians.
Southern Baptists. And Roman Catholics.
So, let's just make a pro-life organization and call it the "Catholics for Life"...how many Baptists will join?
How many Roman Catholics will join the "Southern Baptists for Life?"
How many of EITHER will join the "Mormons for Life".
Will they all join "Christians for Life"?
Probably yes.
"What's in a name," Shakespeare asked, "a rose by any other name would smell as sweet."
Perhaps, but a "fart" from the mouth of a child sounds a lot less sweet than a "passing of gas", doesn't it?
I'm not comfortable with both parties being as close as they are now. I don't think it's healthy for the nation as a whole. I believe our founders intended for dissent to be one of the vanguards to keeping any political party from becoming master of all. Thus the reason they mentioned no parties in forming our electoral process.
Political Parties are like any other group or organization they can become corrupt or so far removed from their intentional purpose they become useless or the very group they were organized to oppose. A good example away from political parties is the NRA. No doubt at it's beginnings it had an honorable purpose and for years stood tall against gun legislation.
It started gaining members who were more open to compromise using flawed logic like for the safety of the children or to prevent crime to actually support gun control laws. Right now I know quite a few gun owners who refuse to join the NRA for that very reason. I am among that group myself.
Next comes more flawed logic. The nations abortion laws and the old standard for the life of the mother. Unless a person is a devout Roman Catholic in a Roman Catholic hospital any doctor will if the mothers life is in danger take the child. That is not abortion and medical protocols were established for this long before legalized abortion became law. In cases of rape or incest? Our nations laws and justice system is based on not punishing the innocents. The baby has the least representation. I can understand well a mother feeling she can not raise a child born of these conditions. We need to return to church ran orphanages.
Illegal Immigration? Ellis Island was opened as a controlled gateway into the United States. Only ones with communicable diseases or criminal histories were turned back in most cases.
We are on the verge of medical epidemics that took the lives of people back up until the early 1960's and these diseases are returning because nations like Mexico either do not vaccinate or improperly use antibiotics. We must for that reason and terrorism have the means to limit who enters this nation and where. The social cost as well is staggering on this issues.
Next is war. A touchy subject even amongst the Conservatives. War as our nation knew it up through 1945 was not what war is today. Had we fought WW2 and previous wars under todays congressional resolutions and rules of engagement we would be speaking German or more likely be under the crown.
War is a brutal act of punishment of an enemy. You don't fight them to turn around and reward them. There were many Germans who hated Hitler and many Japanese who hate the Emperor. They died by our hands. Had they not we would have lost. We fought brother against brother as a nation literally and not our own brothers were shown mercy if he was the enemy.
We have to give up nation building. On that one Bush when in the 2000 debates stated Gore was for it but w said he was not. Where are we today? Whatever reservations anyone has about the War In Iraq if we had went in and started taking out infrastructure destroying everything standing like Sherman's march to the sea does anyone not doubt Iran would have quite a different attitude?
The United Nations? From what I can see it outlived it's purpose in May 1948 when Biblical Prophecy was fulfilled in a day. We don't need it and we sure don't need the U.N. in NYC or any other American City. We must be our own guaranteer of our freedoms and not be required to be such to anyone else nor should we come before world courts. That goes against everything the founders dreamed of. We as a nation tossed Washingtons's warnings on treaties and entanglement out the window.
Either the GOP has to return to some Constitutional Basics or it is useless. It can despite what many think be replaces as it was a party formed by the division of several. Most of all no politician or party should ever be allowed to rule us or make us vote for them by intimidation or fear. That is something well in our control. /Rant Off
Why is it that the Democrats are going to nominate the most leftist candidate they can, but the Republican party is bound to find the most "electable" candidate? Their base dictates and our base has to take dictation.
And many of the most active freepers are pushing it that way.
You should be here sticking up for your guy, don't you think?
Checking in!!! If I didn't know better Enosh I would think you are trying to taunt me... ;)
Yes, I admit I like Rudy. I am not blind to his faults, nor do I agree with all of his positions. I have said before and I will say again, no matter who gets the nomination whether it be Hunter, Guiliani, Romney or anyone else they will get my vote. Although I am hopeful it won't be McCain. The ticket that appeals most to me is Rudy/Newt... I get the best of both that way.
Does this make me a liberal? Does this make me the baby killer I and others have been called? Does this make me love my country less than anyone else here? I don't believe it does. I am not pro any of the things Jim listed. It's my belief, right ot wrong that the direction this country takes is entwined in winning the war on terror.
I know many feel strongly that a vote for Rudy is a vote for Hillary, we disagree there as well. Hillary isn't going to support our troops, nor the WOT, nor anything else that is important to me. I believe Rudy will be tough on terror and ensure all the freedoms that makes our country great will remain in place.
I am grateful to Jim for providing us a place where we can come together to express ourselves, discuss our beliefs and yes, even argue the issues.
And on that note... Even if we don't always agree I respect the opinions being offered, if you can count on one thing it's nobody tells it like a Freeper, at least like it is from their perspective!
IMHO, it's because they are Bush loyalists.
Any GOP candidate who is against comprehensive immigration reform or Tougher border security is trashed. Tancredo and Hunter, for example.
Rudy is the closest thing to Bush when it comes to illegal alien rights and the WOT..
It would make Bush look bad if the establishment supported someone who opposed his comprehensive immigration reform.
It's all about Bush.
sw
They've been doing it here for months. I wear their stripes as badges of honor. A great man whom I consider my political mentor said, "Those who fight for principle can be proud of the friends they've gained and the enemies they've earned. The basic purpose of life is to prove ourselves, not to be with the majority when it is wrong." I believe that.
Yet you're willing to jettison your principles if he's nominated?
"I was a member of two Pub organizations that self-destructed over the abortion issue. I know that guns and immigration/national security etc. are also hard spots; but abortion is the fuse that has been burning far too long. I now believe that it will eventually irreparably split the Republican party."
Of course abortion is the thing that destroys the unity of the party, because the abortion issue forces a black or white, yes or no, life or death answer. It is zero sum. There is no finessing it. Either somebody dies OR somebody is forced to bear a child against her will.
Moreover, it's the abortion issue that really forces people into the corner of deciding whether they REALLY believe their religion or not. There's no straddle for Catholics: the Church position is absolute. There are those who say they're still Catholics but support abortion, but this does not work at all. Why? Because Catholics accept the infallibility of the Church on matters of faith and morals. Abortion is just such a matter. If you don't support the Church on a matter of faith and morals, and don't acknowledge that your position is defiant and sinful, then you are also denying infallibility. In short, you have ceased to be a Catholic but still want to identify yourself as one. It's not so starkly black and white for other Christians, because no other Christian church makes the absolute claim of divine infallibility that Catholicism does, but it's still perfectly clear that one cannot be a Southern Baptist, the second largest denomination in America, and be for abortion.
Abortion is also a matter of liberty, of sexual freedom, and of convenience. If you don't really believe in God and all that, then why would you forego the liberty and freedom and convenience of abortion, for yourselves or for your friends and family, if they need it.
Beyond that, there are practical advantages of abortion. It dramatically cuts the welfare rolls, over time. It has practically eliminated certain handicaps, which are now aborted in utero when detected. This keeps down the upward pressure on medical costs and taxes. Also, there is a clear correlation and a likely causal relation between abortion of the urban underclass (the highest abortion rates) and the precipitous drop in crime starting 16 years after Roe. Criminals breed criminals.
So, abortion cuts all ways, and no compromise is possible at all. of course it blows up Republican unity.
I don't see it as tossing out my principles, there are times in life when something is important enough to us that we must compromise in the short term to win in the long term.
(A)Note:.. Not any republic but a special unique republic unique in world history.. A republic with rights even INalienable rights.. Rights given and codified by GOD in a constitution.. With three branchs of government made to enforce those INalienable rights.. And a 2nd amendment given to ensure civil war was/is possible.. when those rights or branches of gov't are threatened.. This government can only be overthrown when the people become cowards to use the 2nd amendment..
Aww, shucks. ;)
And therein lies your problem. You don't see it as tossing out your principles, but you are. Compromise? You compromise yourself, your character and principles every time you vote for someone who's ideology you're willing to accept that differs from your own.
Some things in this short life we're granted is worth everything we are or hope to be. I've conversed with FReepers who say they don't care about abortions, or having guns, or have scoffed at our culture. This is a conservative forum but sometimes the post I read makes me wonder who some of these people are who would post such anti conservative views on here.
I changed my username because of the things I've read on here. The articles about things going on in this magnificent country of our is being destroyed at an alarming rate.
I'm not a goes to church religious person because I believe our churches are overflowing with hypocrites, but, yesterday in my little girls Bible lesson we read and discussed the story of Jacob and Esau. As I understood it, Esau sold his birthright for a bowl of stew because he was hungry and chose earthly desires over his covenant given to his grandfather.
The story was about choices and the consequences of those choices. Our choices are important.
If you don't believe in abortion are you willing to accept the guilt of having voted for a man that believes having babies sucked from their mothers womb is allowable because you don't care about short term as long as you believe you will win in the long run?
For some, one life is too high a price to pay for an earthly political win.
For the same reason I wouldn't grab my shot gun and go shoot & kill uncle Ed because I was reckless I wrecked while driving his car. It's called personal responsibility for your actions. Now if I shoot uncle Ed and the government says it legal I wouldn't have to pay him for his car. How convenient for me.
Beyond that, there are practical advantages of abortion. It dramatically cuts the welfare rolls, over time. It has practically eliminated certain handicaps, which are now aborted in utero when detected. This keeps down the upward pressure on medical costs and taxes. Also, there is a clear correlation and a likely causal relation between abortion of the urban underclass (the highest abortion rates) and the precipitous drop in crime starting 16 years after Roe. Criminals breed criminals.
Have you ever really gotten to know a person with a severe handi-cap say a quadriplegic or someone with Downs Syndrome? Medical test are not fool proof especially those looking at a forming life.
I know a woman with no legs and no arms. She and her husband are raising their daughter. I know another woman who can't even barely move her fingers. She has a college degree and works for a major corp. Her sister born with the same birth defect has two daughters and she works as a book keeper in a trucking company. These persons were born this way.
I have known many with birth defects none cursed their day of birth nor did their parents. BTW I'm also married to a quadriplegic so yes I understand what care giving is. Now as for the rest of that paragraph? It wreaks of some of the same type arguments Hitler or one such as he would make for genocide which is what abortion is.
What you see as problematic I see as pragmatic. While I appreciate your point of view I don't appreciate you judging me.
Suit yourself, you probably do anyhow.
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