Mormon Candidate Braces for Religion as Issue [NYT on Romney]

The New York Times ^ | February 8, 2007 | ADAM NAGOURNEY and LAURIE GOODSTEIN

[Plutarch]

WASHINGTON, Feb. 7 — As he begins campaigning for the Republican presidential nomination, Mitt Romney, the former Massachusetts governor, is facing a threshold issue: Will his religion — he is a Mormon — be a big obstacle to winning the White House?

Polls show a substantial number of Americans will not vote for a Mormon for president. The religion is viewed with suspicion by Christian conservatives, a vital part of the Republicans’ primary base.

Mr. Romney’s advisers acknowledged that popular misconceptions about Mormonism — as well as questions about whether Mormons are beholden to their church’s leaders on public policy — could give his opponents ammunition in the wide-open fight among Republicans to become the consensus candidate of social conservatives.

Mr. Romney, in an extended interview on the subject as he drove through South Carolina last week, expressed confidence that he could quell concerns about his faith, pointing to his own experience winning in Massachusetts. He said he shared with many Americans the bafflement over obsolete Mormon practices like polygamy — he described it as “bizarre” — and disputed the argument that his faith would require him to be loyal to his church before his country.

“People have interest early on in your religion and any similar element of your background,” he said. “But as soon as they begin to watch you on TV and see the debates and hear you talking about issues, they are overwhelmingly concerned with your vision of the future and the leadership skills that you can bring to bear...”

[RobRoy]

>>The site was narrowly focused on the Book of Mormon. <<

I understand. I give you one thing I have a problem with: It said some claim that the entire book could not have been included on the gold plates. That is not the problem.

The problem is that the only person that saw these plates is Mr. Smith. After he died, even those who had previously saw them said they saw them "with the eyes of faith". IOW, he said it and they believed him.

Criminy! A whole religion based on the claims of a man with his history?! Sheesh!

[RobRoy]

I don't have TV, but my daughter came back from college and had me download an episode of South Park about the Mormon kid that comes to town. A warning - this show has some real fowl language. I've been away from tv since 1997 and had no idea what kind of language was now allowed.

Anyway, In this episode, it covers, in a cartoon way, the history of Mormonism. Some of it is so goofy one would assume they are only joking. They aren't. A transcript of the show is here: http://www.rickross.com/reference/mormon/mormon134.html

A rundown of what is accurate, what is semi-accurate, and what is nonsense in the episode is here: http://www.i4m.com/think/southpark/

Taking both of these sites together is an EXCELLENT Mormonism 101 course. It at least stimulates curiosity and questioning - which is ALWAYS a good thing.

Acts 10: 28-30 (KJV):

Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.

[nowandlater]

Reponse to "Moonmen"

http://www.lightplanet.com/response/answers/moon.htm

Let's see Oliver Huntington was 10 years old when Joseph Smith. Add to the fact that the blessing that speaks of "Moon-men" came from his own father NOT Joseph Smith Sr. or Joseph Smith Jr or anyone in Church leadership. AND there is nothing in the writings of Joseph Smith that every talked of Moon-men. This is a 100% made up slander. Sorry no foundation in the facts for criticism here.

[nowandlater]

Response to Book of Mormon Metallurgy:

http://www.fairlds.org/FAIR_Brochures/Anachronisms4.pdf

[RobRoy]

The point is that it is most definitely part of Mormon history. Feel free to explain it away. The point is that it is there, and for everyone to see and make up their own mindes.

Meanwhile, What about what Brigham Young said in the JofD about the likelyhood that the sun is inhabited?

You realize of course, that the biggest mistake these guys made was to write all this stuff down in one form or another. I used to have hard copies of a lot of this stuff back in the 80's but a mormon friend threw it away. I mean she admitted it!

As with darwin and evolutionists, who knew the internet would make this stuff so widely available.

Remember, the truth easily rolls downhill. A lie must be constantly pushed uphill. In the end, the truth always wins.

[nowandlater]

Southpark left out some details which would have made it less laughable. Like Joseph transcribing the characters on paper and the looking in the seer stone. Like Lucy Mack Smith conspiring with a local preacher.. and so on.

I thought we are smarter here at freerepublic to understand that one needs to dig deeper than to take someone's word for it.

[nowandlater]

Sorry..I meant Martin Harris' wife, not Lucy Mack.

[nowandlater]

Sorry..I meant Martin Harris' wife, not Lucy Mack.

[RobRoy]

>>Response to Book of Mormon Metallurgy:

http://www.fairlds.org/FAIR_Brochures/Anachronisms4.pdf<<

Based on what I read here, there are no good responses by Mormon apologists, if this is all that is offered. Just my opinion.

[RobRoy]

Oh, trust me. I have dug MUCH deeper. That is why I called this Mormonism 101.

[AppyPappy]

Did you know that Joseph Smith was Methodist?

[Tokra]

I recall Joseph Smith himself, and Mitt's Dad. I think.

Yes, his dad was Gov. George Romney of Michigan who ran for Presidnet in 1968. His candidacy was shot down when he made a comment about being "brainwashed" about the Vietnam War.

[Pan_Yans Wife]

We have a friend who was a Mormon bishop. Quite honestly I will say that he had no special qualifications that could be used to explain his title. I don't believe he knew what the church really stood for. And I felt sorry for him.

His wife wanted to leave him... and in the middle of the night her Mormon friends arrived at their home, packed up the kids and took her to Texas.

Our friend was bitter, of course. But, he didn't want to see where the church was manipulating his wife.

Later, when she left the Moromon church, she became a Lutheran. He laughed and said she only did it so she could drink alcohol. To me, that was such a sad statement.

My hope is that she did it for her kids and herself... stepping out into the light. I remain hopeful for her children.

[nowandlater]

What? Did you read the article? What say you to finding several tons of iron dated to the Pre-Columbian era that totally obilerates the metalluragical disagreement. There is no way that can be disputed.

[nowandlater]

How can you say you have dug deep into Mormonism, if you had not read the Book of Mormon? I think the analysis you present is pretty shallow. You base your opinion of Mormons on a South Park cartoon, A google search, And very tired and old and disputed criticism? A fair and deep analysis would lay out positives and negatives. Regurgitating negatives is a sure sign of a very biased evaluation.

[nowandlater]

Reflecting on your response, I honestly don't think you read the article in detail.

Can you identify the non-Mormon archealogists and their findings?

[RobRoy]

>>What? Did you read the article? What say you to finding several tons of iron dated to the Pre-Columbian era that totally obilerates the metalluragical disagreement. There is no way that can be disputed.<<

No offense, but it was only a two page pdf in very large print. It was "Tier 1" information. No real depth. I didn't really want to get into this but some of the most damning evidence against Smith is from that very pdf here:

Steel
The King James Bible often uses the word “steel” to refer to what we know today as bronze. Even experts have acknowledged a problem in terminology when discussing “steel” in antiquity. One early native chronicler, for example, wrote that the Tarascans (Mesoamerica’s most noted metallurgists at the time of the Spanish conquest) wore “steel” helmets.10 A type of “steel”—meteoric nickel-iron alloy—was available in Mesoamerica and some non-LDS scholars list the alloy as “steel.”

The person who wrote this is correct. He is also more knowledgable about the Bible translations than Joseph Smith or the person who wrote the book that it is arguable Mr. Smiths "friend" stole that eventually became the BOM.

Regarding the "There is no way it can be disputed remark" I offer this as refutation:

I explain in my story that metallurgy in the Book of Mormon was one of the reasons I no longer believe the Book of Mormon to be a story of real people. Here is an article about a portion of the Book of Mormon - metallurgy.

In 2Ne5:5 Nephi and his family and friends separate from the Lamanites 12 years after landing in the Americas. They quickly develop a complex metallurgical culture that other civilizations in history required centuries to create. Here are the cast of characters:

*Nephi and family - wife and possibly a possibly some children
*Zoram and his family - wife and possibly some children
*Sam and his family - again a family
*Jacob - a young man or boy
*Joseph - an even younger man or boy
*Others of Nephi's sisters - perhaps as many as 3-4 women.
*"and all those who would go with me". That could at best be a few of Ishmael's family. So let's give some credit here to 4 more men, 4 more women and a few more children even though these extra people are never mentioned in the Book of Mormon.

These total to (again these are HIGHER estimates than the story allows):

8 men
15 children
10 women

Mormons could argue for slightly different numbers of people, but for the sake of the story it really does not matter. The numbers are small, very small. A few Mormons have written me and the highest number given me is 500 people. That 500 people could already exist as Nephites is a great leap of faith in Nephite procreation.

Now from the Book of Mormon:

2Ne5:14-16 "14.) And I, Nephi, did take the sword of Laban, and after the manner of it did make many swords... 15.) And I did teach my people to build buildings, and to work in all manner of wood, and of iron, and of copper, and of brass, and of steel, and of gold, and of silver, and of precious ores, which were in great abundance. 16.) And I, Nephi, did build a temple; and I did construct it after the temple of Solomon save it were not built of so many precious things; for they were not to be found upon the land, wherefore, it could not be built like unto Solomon's temple. But the manner of the construction was like unto the temple of Solomon..."

I have both a BS and MS in metallurgical engineering, so I think I can speak with some authority here.

How likely is it that 8 men, 15 children and 10 women, who just fled into the wilderness, would be able to do the following? Just for fun, is this any more plausible with a society of 500 people, most of them children?

Steel making - this is complex all by itself - mixing iron with carbon
Iron mining and manufacturing - the production of elemental iron from iron ore
Coal mining - coal is required in the production of iron and is refined into coke
Limestone mining - limestone is also required
Tin or zinc mining - depending on the definition of "brass"
Refining and manufacturing of tin or zinc since they do not occur in an elemental state in nature
Smelting
Fluxing
Grinding
Roasting - to eliminate sulfur in copper, silver and some iron ores
Copper mining
Complex furnaces - to have reduction atmospheres to produce the metals
Mining tools - where did the hardened tools come from to start with?
Prospecting - how did they know how to identify ores?
Gold mining
Silver mining
Complex wood working - a small replica of Solomon's temple

How could a few people run a complex metallurgical culture in the wilderness and at the same time make shelters, get food and just plain survive? This is only a few years after coming to the American continent by boat. Some LDS apologists refer to meteoric iron as the raw material Nephites had used. This is quite unlikely as there is no archeological evidence that meteoric iron fragments were used beyond simple ornamental items like crude mirrors or decorations. The meteoric iron would have to be melted then mixed with correct percentages of carbon to make steel. That is as a complex of a technology as producing elemental iron, so which ever way you look at it, the possibility is incredibly remote that steel was manufactured.

Let us look at more claims.

They were working with copper!!
This requires roasting (remove the sulfides with oxygen) and a completely different set of metallurgical processes than steel making. Native copper, which requires no processing, is quite rare. If Nephi were referring to native copper, there would have been no need to "train" in it as it is already in its elemental state and easily workable. Some LDS apologists have written me saying that the Nephites went all the way to the Upper Peninsula of Michigan to get their copper. They traveled thousands of miles for some metal? Mormons can not have it both ways. LDS scholars claim Nephites lived in only a very small geographical area of South America. To also claim they traveled thousands of miles to do their mining is grossly straining credibility

They developed brass!! They had to learn how to make alloys with copper. They would have had to then develop zinc and/or tin mines with these metallic elements each requiring different metallurgical processes to extract the metals from the ore. How bizarre can the story get? It gets worse....

They were working with precious ores. This adds gold and silver mining to the list and different metallurgical methods again are required for processing the ore.

This was all done with 8 men, 10 women and 15 or so children. How could I have ever believed it? But it gets even worse yet....

They then went and built a temple like Solomon's. Solomon's Temple was built by, according to the Bible, 180,000 men over a period of 7 years. Since Nephi would have been familiar with what that temple was like. How could he possibly even imagine that 8 men and 10 women, along with running their mining and manufacturing industries, build a temple that could be compared to it?

I could go on about the self contradictory statements in the verses like precious ores being in abundance and then not being there in the very next verse. The story is so absurd that it alone should keep a rational person from believing in the Book of Mormon.

And to top it off, no archeological evidence supports mining activity, which leaves indestructible evidence, during the Book of Mormon period in Central America where nearly all LDS apologists claim the Book of Mormon peoples lived. What is more likely - a handful of people developed an unprecedented and "yet to be discovered" complex metallurgical society or that the Book of Mormon is a fairy tale?

There is a little more depth here but it is only a small part of what I can dig up, given the motivation and time. There is more out there than what is on the apologetics sites. The reason the history of mormonism is so easy to refute is that it is still relatively recent and, frankly, too, well, nutty. That is why it was such ripe fodder for that tasteless tv "cartoon".

[RobRoy]

>>How can you say you have dug deep into Mormonism, if you had not read the Book of Mormon?<<

I considered joining LDS here in Seattle right after I toured the temple in Bellevue right after it's completion. I received a BOM at the time. I dumped it several years later when I became a Christian. I picked up another copy that a Mormon friend left in his desk when he left his company. I still have it for the sole purpose of being able to verify mormon and non-mormon claims about scripture which I do not remember. I was in a classic rock band for over two years that included three mormon and two Christian members. It is now five mormon members.
>>I think the analysis you present is pretty shallow.<<

No more shallow than the PDF you offered.

>>You base your opinion of Mormons on a South Park cartoon, A google search, And very tired and old and disputed criticism?

No. I offered some valid research and "interesting" criticism for the casual viewer. And for the third time now I called it mormonism 101.

>>A fair and deep analysis would lay out positives and negatives. Regurgitating negatives is a sure sign of a very biased evaluation.<<


Yeah, sounds like something Satan would have said to Jesus in the forty days. I am not condemning you, just your reasoning. It is seriously flawed.

[RobRoy]

>>Reflecting on your response, I honestly don't think you read the article in detail.

Can you identify the non-Mormon archealogists and their findings?<<

Is this a reading comprehension test?

I'm not playing. It took me less than ten minutes to read that pdf. It took me another ten to google some of the references. Did you know Anne even has a myspace page?

[nowandlater]

When are you going to ask the hard questions?

Nephi never said it was the same size as Solomons temple; he said he built a temple "after the manner of the temple of Solomon" or following the same design as Solomon's but probably on a much smaller scale. "Wherefore, it could not be built like unto Solomon's temple. But the manner of the construction was like unto the temple of Solomon."(2 Ne. 5:16)

Archaeologists have found that Mesoamerican temples had an entrance with two pillars standing in the front on either side of the doorway and they bore no weight. They were just standing pillars that ended in a top. That's exactly the same as for the Temple of Solomon, where there were two pillars and their names are given in the account about the construction of that temple. The form of the temple in Mesoamerica, what are thought to be temples anyway, the form is similar to descriptions of the Temple of Solomon. The emphasis at the Temple of Solomon was not on the structure, (i.e. the enclosed space inside). Worshipers did not go inside. A priest occasionally went inside, but the large majority operated, carried on their sacrifices, did their worship outside in the court. That is exactly the case also with the Mesoamerican temples. Sacrifices were made on altars that look very Jewish look very Israelite and those were in front of temples. - quote from John L. Sorenson


Examples of Iron Metallurgy exactly during Book of Mormon times. Visual evidence is so nice.

http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/preclovisindiansiron.html

http://www.iwaynet.net/~wdc/


Also, before Nephi sailed to the Americas he instructed by the Lord. Could that also include Metallurgy?

2nd Nephi Chapter 2, verses 2 to 3

2 Now I, Nephi, did not work the timbers after the manner which was learned by men, neither did I build the ship after the manner of men; but I did build it after the manner which the Lord had shown unto me; wherefore, it was not after the manner of men.
3 And I, Nephi, did go into the mount oft, and I did pray oft unto the Lord; wherefore the Lord showed unto me great things.

Also, the account of Spanish Conquestadors. They reaped vast amounts of Gold from the Mayans; yet it is very difficult to find smelting furnaces for gold. Why is that? Consider this explaination:

http://www2.ida.net/graphics/shirtail/mesoamer.htm