Posted on 02/08/2007 2:31:51 PM PST by Plutarch
>>When are you going to ask the hard questions? <<
Twenty five years ago.
We are discussing events of well over a century ago. There is no new information. Only new spin. I don't need to keep rehashing the Koran, Mein Kampf, or any of the writings of Karl Marx to "solidify" an already thouroughly researched opinion.
There is plenty of information to easily damn all of these works, as well as the BOM and D&C to anyone other than the True Believers. It is really that plain.
The sad thing about Mormonism is that when people DO leave, their first stop is agnosticism or atheism. Merely because of it's proximity to true Christianity it can turn them off to it - for a while. The good news is that many of them move on to the Jesus of the Bible. That is a good thing.
http://www.morien-institute.org/
I see at least 10 new archealogical discoveries here a day. I think evidence is growing for my faith and the Book of Mormon and I think it is very plain to see.
I honestly believe I am worshiping the Jesus of the Bible. Do you think I am fooled? Come on, challenge me. I tend to know my stuff.
There are all sorts of archeological discoveries all over the world. And many will try to twist them to possibly, maybe prove this or that. Business as usual.
Ecclesiastes 1:9
The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.
That's a great quote. Lol
And I agree that looking to the past can be like viewing through a "glass darkling" to quote the Apostle Paul.
If you are, then you are not mormon. I hope that is true.
The Jesus of the Bible died as a perfect atonement for my sins. And it afords the very saving grace He promised, and is a free gift. The ONLY thing I can do to receive this gift is to accept it. Nothing else I do can get me one nanometer closer to an eternity in His presence.
This is the very foundation of Christianity. It is this very foundation that is not a part of Mormonism. In mormonism, the blood of Christ is a partial payment. There was a book called Mamma, Mormonism and Me that covered this concept a bit, but one can discover it in more scholarly ways if one has the time and staying power.
>>And I agree that looking to the past can be like viewing through a "glass darkling" to quote the Apostle Paul.<<
Yes. But he was not talking about the past. He was talking about while we are in this earthly vessel. As C.S. Lewis said, trying to explain heaven to men is like trying to explain a cube to a man that lives in a two dimensional world.
I do subcribe to this concept: Time flows like a river. Eternity is an ocean.
To quote Jesus Christ:
Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that cdoeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
What does doing the will of "[Jesus'] Father" mean to you?
Also in Matthew chapter 7, Jesus says these are things you should do:
1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
3 aAnd why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the cbeam that is in thine own eye?
4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye.
6 ¶ Give not that which is bholy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your cpearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.
7 ¶ Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
9 Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?
10 Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?
11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?
The Jesus says that if you don't do this you are condemned:
24 ¶ Therefore whosoever aheareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a crock.
26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that ahouse; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.
In essence I too believe in absolute 100% Mercy. BUT, it is mercy from our inadequacies, NOT from our inactions.
Response to copper:
We may not need to find "new" specimens or sites as much as we need to reassess old ones, few of which have received more than limited attention by qualified experts. E. J. Neiburger recently applied xeroradiography to artifacts of the Old Copper Complex of Minnesota, where it has always been supposed that only cold-hammering of nuggets was used in making the more than 20,000 copper artifacts known from around the Great Lakes area. His study found, to the surprise of nearly all archaeologists, that some of the artifacts appear to have been cast, and at least one "provides firm evidence of casting." [See E. J. Neiburger, cited in John L. Sorenson, "Metals and Metallurgy Relating to the Book of Mormon Text," F.A.R.M.S. paper, 1992, 39, with abstracts.] "Excavated," if it is clear, does not mean "studied properly"—in Minnesota or in Mesoamerica.
http://www2.ida.net/graphics/shirtail/mesoamer.htm
Casting copper? Around the same time of the Book of Mormon timeline? If it was technologically feasible in Minnesota then why not in Mesoamerica?
Accepting Jesus as your personal savior.
>>In essence I too believe in absolute 100% Mercy. BUT, it is mercy from our inadequacies, NOT from our inactions.<<
I agree, I think. The problem - no, the GOOD NEWS - is discussed here:
Romans 7:23-25
...but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.
>>In essence I too believe in absolute 100% Mercy. BUT, it is mercy from our inadequacies, NOT from our inactions.<<
No, it is forgiveness of sin, including sins committed even after one has accepted Christ as ones personal savior from sin as discussed in Romans 7.
I used this analogy with high school students: Imagine "God" is your rich earthly father. Now imagine you are a muslim. Your father (Allah) tells you to clean up your room. You clean it up because your faith tells you that if you do not obey you will be written out of the will. If you don't clean it up, you assume you are out.
Now imagine you are a Christian. Your Father (God) tells you to clean up your room. You have FREE WILL to choose to disobey, but you know you will not be written out of the will because of your decision. You clean it up, not because of selfish fear of losing your inheritance, but because you love and want to please your father. Yet even that love comes from Him.
One caveat though: If you only SAY you are a Christian, yet never clean your room, you may not be saved. Your unwillingness to clean your room is not what causes you to lose salvation. Rather, it is evidence that you never really had it.
True Christians screw up all the time. They have affairs, lie, cheat, even commit murder. Nobody is perfect. That is why we need Grace. But true Christians lives have also been changed - compared to what they were before they were bought by the blood. And since only God knows from where any of us came, only he and the saved person know if the person is saved.
We are continually being perfected, which clearly implies that there is still work to be done on everyone.
>>If it was technologically feasible in Minnesota then why not in Mesoamerica?<<
Read the article I cut and pasted and you will know why.
The Jesus of the Bible died as a perfect atonement for my sins too, because I am not perfect. Yet he has commanded me to be so. (Matthew 5:48
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.)
His grace is suficent for all men that come unto Him. Obviously "come unto Him" means different things to us. This scripture from James Chapter 2 tells it plainly to me. If you feel differently, that is your right to so choose.
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not aRahab the harlot bjustified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
I hate arguing these points, because in my view, we are agreeing on the same things but it seems we like to phrase it a certain way.
I have several mormon friends, some of which know the bible VERY well. I have spent many hours talking these points with them. We have politely agreed to disagree.
It is interesting. We can be on precicely the same page up to a point and then we split, in very, VERY clear ways.
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