Mormon Candidate Braces for Religion as Issue [NYT on Romney]

The New York Times ^ | February 8, 2007 | ADAM NAGOURNEY and LAURIE GOODSTEIN

[milford421]

I really thought you were kidding...

Seriously, though...Massachussetts folks are still playing bingo, haven't had their rights curtailed in any way, and haven't been forced to practice Mormon beliefs...thought you knew that.

"So, your point is, as long as a religion (or its practitioners) are not as bad as Islam, it's OK?"

No, my point is that Mormon's don't advocate the violence and beheading.

"In some ways, having my American freedoms curtailed in America is worse than losing my life in a place where I have no damn business (unless I'm carrying weapons with the authority to use them)."

News flash!! Your rights in America are being curtailed by the NON-RELIGIOUS LEFT!!!!

In case you haven't been paying attention, I'm not talking about anyplace other than the U.S.

Are you really that intolerant of Mormons specifically, or religion in general?

[RobRoy]

Nope. There is a difference. A strong one. Christianity is based on faith. Mormonism is based on blind faith. It is that simple.

Since the death and resurrection of Christ, two men have started religions based on the "God of the Bible" by stating that God told them that man had screwed up the message and He was giving them the task of setting us straight again.

One was Joseph Smith and the other was Mohamed.

I ask every person (including myself) with an opinion about things spiritual, "who told you that and why did you believe them?". The answer can be very revealing.

I do not attempt to defend the church I defend really, because it is so flawed, and all church organizations are mere man made religions. Christianity itself, on the other hand...

[hunter112]

I certainly don't think Mitt will force his religious convictions on anyone. There is a big difference between the place where 70% of the people are Mormon, and the rest of the world, where Mormons make up only about 3-5% of the population, at most. I'd be perfectly happy to vote for him over any of the Democrat candidates running. He might even earn my support by the time my state's primary comes.

I was just disagreeing with your blanket statement that Mormons don't impose their beliefs on society. I happened to live in a place where they did. I certainly do not expect them to become a majority in American society anywhere in the foreseeable future. If that should ever happen, then I would expect them to try to get rid of things their religion tells them are bad. I'd expect that out of any religion that had that kind of clout.

You are absolutely right about the left wanting to curtail freedoms. I would have voted for Washington's antismoking law on the November, 2005 ballot, but having spent a half year in a nanny-control state, I could clearly see the excesses of trying to make people behave 'correctly'.

[milford421]

Fair enough.

[delacoert]

Are you really that intolerant of Mormons specifically, or religion in general?

RETCH... YAK

Miford421, Is it true that you have stop beating your wife?

You are so threatened by the tidal wave of laughter and rejection of Mitt Romney that you resort to pathetic put-words-in-the-other-guy's-mouth questions such as the above.

I'm looking forward to article after arcticle tracing Romney's pathetic dash toward irrelevance which are posted in NEWS/ACTIVITISM here at FR by die-hard Mormans citing the injustice of it all.

Here arebut a few of the insane LDS tenants/practice that will trickle, trickle, trickle out in the MSM until Romney gets a clue and dispears completely from public view:

1. The LDS teach that God was once human, and many gods exist. By performing good works, Father God progressed to become divine, as can other people. God resides near the planet, Kolob (location unknown).
2. Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother have bodies. Father God engages in sexual relations with Heavenly Mother or with other divine wives, creating “spirit babies” who float throughout the universe until human women become pregnant.

   Plenty more to follow but I'll just wait and have fun exposing them as more Romney self-descruction articles get published and cried over by the pathetic LDS FReeper contingency.

   One more favorite LDS tactic before I sign off:

   When explaining LDS doctrine or practice might make the religion look odd to the general public, Mormons believe “giving milk before meat” is best. Giving simple explanations initially, and details later, is their belief. Another LDS method is “lying for the Lord,” or deceiving non-Mormons concerning potentially-misunderstood LDS beliefs.

[nowandlater]

Uh really? Are we talking about a serious discussion of Mormon belief or the tired and old mischaracterizations yell fest on the internet.

I find the stuff you list about is really nothing new--Mormon missionaries deal with this all the time. Come back when you got something new or serious to discuss.

[sevenbak]

Blind faith? No one is asked, or even allowed to join the Church unless they have an assurance as to whither or not is it true. This can't come from missionaries, it can't come from reading the scriptures alone either. It can only come as a witness from the Holy Spirit.

This is the promise in the last chapter of the Book of Mormon that speaks to this:

Moroni 10:4-5
4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.
5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.

[delacoert]

Uh really? Are we talking about a serious discussion of Mormon belief or the tired and old mischaracterizations yell fest on the Internet.

I find the stuff you list about is really nothing new--Mormon missionaries deal with this all the time. Come back when you got something new or serious to discuss.

Really... The Muslims call the kind of prevarication you are employing, "al-Taqqiya".

(Defn.: "The word "al-Taqiyya" literally means: Concealing or disguising one's beliefs, convictions, ideas, feelings, opinions, and/or strategies at a time of eminent danger, whether now or later in time, to save oneself from physical and/or mental injury. A one-word translation would be "Dissimulation.")

In my post (#121) to which you responded with a streaming pile of your cult's mealy mouthed lies, by calling out your al-Tiqqaya-like speech for exactly what it is:

The LDS method of “lying for the Lord,” or deceiving non-Mormons concerning potentially-misunderstood LDS beliefs.

To you, a lying Mormonic acolyte, this really is nothing new. As you say, "Mormon missionaries deal with this all the time."

[milford421]

"Miford421, Is it true that you have stop beating your wife?"

Issues...you can see people about these you know.

[nowandlater]

No lying here man. I just asked if this was a serious discussion. Are you being serious?

[nowandlater]

Delacoert,

I am DEEPLY offended that you think that I would lie to defend my faith. You have some serious issues if you think that is the case. Also, I am equally DEEPLY offended that you think that the leadership of my Church would encourage lying to defend our faith. Do I think that my faith is mischaracterized sometimes? Yes, I do. I very offended that you think my Church acts like Muslims. Have you ever attended a Mormon Sacrament service? Have seen us during that service as we promise to remember Jesus Christ in all that we do and say? Do you realize how important the Sacrament is to our faith?

[Pan_Yans Wife]

"Milk before meat" isn't only found in the Mormon church.

Scientologists use he same tactics. You work your way up the Scientology ladder, paying for their dubious counseling and along the way you are given more information about the cult which they would characterize as enlightenment.

People have been caught in the Scientology snare and have forked over thousands of dollars trying to achieve a "higher level of being". It is nothing but a scam. Many people leave broke with their minds twisted out of shape.

[greyfoxx39]

placemark

[sevenbak]

You are way off base. Most Christian religions teach the basics of faith and repentance before the higher laws of the Gospel.


Hebrews 5:12
For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

1 Corinthians 3:2
I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.


Reply to:

"Milk before meat" isn't only found in the Mormon church.

Scientologists use he same tactics. You work your way up the Scientology ladder, paying for their dubious counseling and along the way you are given more information about the cult which they would characterize as enlightenment.

People have been caught in the Scientology snare and have forked over thousands of dollars trying to achieve a "higher level of being". It is nothing but a scam. Many people leave broke with their minds twisted out of shape.

[Pan_Yans Wife]

Higher laws? The gospel of Jesus amplifies the teachings of the Old Testament; they are intertwined. There is no "starting point" when it comes to learning about God.

There is no lesson plan that is necessary. Any person could walk into a Christian church and understand and absorb that Sunday's message. Nothing is hidden or set aside until later. Answers are everywhere and attainable for everyone from the moment you step inside the church.

One man's milk is not another's. When I joined my church, I wasn't coddled, everything was there in black and white. I did not need further revelation from anyone. My father-in-law who is a pastor ALWAYS says, READ THE BIBLE. Yes, he could sit there all afternoon and explain things... but he believes that to know God, you have to know his Word. No man can replace the Bible.

When it comes to the Book of Mormon, it has gone through so many changes that I don't think Smith would even recognize it. The official History of the Church is only 40% Joseph Smith's writings. They have been rewritten so as to be "faith promoting" and the 60%, which was not his writing at all, was selectively chosen from other people's writings and rewritten to make him out to be something he was not.

[sevenbak]

Quite right. The Gospel of Jesus Christ amplifies all the teachings of the prophets of the OT. He is the God of the Old Testament, of the NT, of us all! Do not assume that I said we study the NT this year as diminishing the OT. That was our course curriculum last year, specifically the OT. We use all the scriptures, but immerse in curriculum studies of the scriptures as a standard practice. Our church meetings are 3 hours each Sunday, 1 out of those 3 is spent in Sunday School curriculum studies, the other time is spent in partaking of the sacraments of our Lord and other worship services) Yes, there are higher laws, and they are the laws of Christ. His atonement and sacrifice lead all men to him, but not all are prepared on the same level. You may be ready for meat, it's obvious from your past and family situation, but not all men are as well prepared to hear the word. This is what the milk is, to give the humble follower of Christ nourishment of His word, prepare him for greater word, greater meat if you will. A new convert to your church will not know as much as you do, so you start with the milk, the foundations of Jesus Christ. It is a biblical treatise, please don't misrepresent it as something foreign to the bible. I think it's great that your father is a pastor. I bet you don't tell him not to teach his flock, because "no man can replace the bible"? Jesus makes it clear that we are to teach one another the peaceable things of the kingdom.

If it helps, here are admonitions to teach one another.

Starting with one of my favorites:

And my personal favorite:

Ephesians 4:
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

Acts 5:42
And daily in the temple, and in every house, they ceased not to teach and preach Jesus Christ.

1 Timothy 6:2
These things teach and exhort.

1 Timothy 4:11
These things command and teach.

Titus 2:12
Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

Matthew 28:
19 ¶ Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have ccommanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Colossians 1:28
Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

Colossians 3:16
Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.

Acts 28:31
Preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him.


And finally, your seemingly hatred of my beliefs serves no purpose to either of us. The anti-Mormon rants you are spouting are 150 years old and have been thoroughly refuted. I'm not diminishing the Gospel of Jesus Christ that you practice, please don't do that to the same God I worship.

[delacoert]

I am equally DEEPLY offended that you think that the leadership of my Church would encourage lying to defend our faith.

Part of me wants to say that I am truly sorry to be part of a revelation that is so painful.

I can not truthfully say that to you though.

If it hurts -- though.

It's up to you to loo for the truth.

[Pan_Yans Wife]

This is not an attempt to diminish your worship. If you study the New Testament and believe it to be truthful, ask yourself this question.

WHY do Mormons need another prophet (or ten... I don't know how many they have gone through) when the Jesus of the New Testament arrived on Earth, taught his flock and triumphed over death.

In my book, going to THE source... the gospel in the New Testament is the only thing necessary.

Anything added to it is blasphemy.

My father isn't a pastor. But, that is beside the point. My faith is grounded in God's Word. If it wasn't, I wouldn't be able to live the life that I do and traverse through life's obstacles.

Again... it is the changing of the doctrine over and over that muddies the waters. The Book of Mormon has been changed over 3000 times! If Smith was honest, there wouldn't have been a need to alter his works.

Not to mention that another stumbling block is that your church is a church that is hidden in secrecy; it hides the truth from its members and fits the definition of a cult.

The Mormon church is notorious for its plagiarism. Sections of the Bible are copied into the Book of Mormon.

There is not any biological evidence connecting the American Indians with the Jews. In fact the genetic evidence suggests quite the opposite.

I could keep listing examples, but I sense that you won't pay attention or find the truth on the net for yourself. I wish that you would.

[sevenbak]

For that matter, if Christ taught His flock and triumphed over death, why was there a need fro Peter, Paul, or any of the other disciples to continue His work? Why are there so many Christian religions if Christ set up His Church and it was to remain untouched and unblemished for ever. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints teach that with the death of the Apostles, there was a falling away and the fullness of His gospel was restored in the latter days.

The BOM has not been changed 3000 times, not even close. There were a handful of spelling errors in the original that were corrected in the 2nd edition, and a further printing (I forget which one) had some small errors by the publisher that were later changed back to match the original edition. Big deal. Antis jump on this all the time, do some real research and don't rely on the WEB garbage to perpetuate your hatred for the Church.

So are you saying that the New Testament plagiarized the Old Testament when they quoted prophecies and universal teachings of God? God is the same yesterday, today and forever. He is the God of the whole earth, not just a small portion of people in Jerusalem and surrounding lands. His teachings do not change. The people who migrated from Jerusalem to the Americas in 600 BC had the writings of Moses as well as the words of the Prophets up to their time, INCLUDING Isaiah, which spoke to the coming of Christ. Why would they not teach their children the words of Isaiah. Why would Christ appearing to these people centuries later not teach the same Gospel. To say it is plagiarized is simply misleading on your part.

I could refute each and every one of your so called revelations about Mormonism, but what is the point? Will it change your mind, or are you just trying to spread darkness and fuel contention?

[nowandlater]

I appreciate your honesty.

I know that because of my Faith I am a better person. And because of my Faith I feel very close to Jesus Christ. Do you think that I am deceived and that I am lying? I guess you honestly think I am. I do believe in a literal interpretation of Jeremiah 34:17

"Therefore thus saith the LORD; Ye have not hearkened unto me, in proclaiming liberty, every one to his brother, and every man to his neighbour: behold, I proclaim a liberty for you, saith the LORD, to the sword, to the pestilence, and to the famine; and I will make you to be removed into all the kingdoms of the earth."

I believe that the Book of Mormon was an account of a lineage of Jewish descent that was in the Americas. At the same time, I also believe that America was also inhabited by many different races and ethnicities, like the Chinese. Does that make me a fool to believe in a literal interpretation of the Jeremiah 34:17? I guess you already have your opinion.

Now the topic of Kolob. Do you know what Kolob means in the Hebrew/Semitic language? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kolob (look here for more details) It is derived from 'QLB' which means heart of center of all. I honestly believe that wherever God resides is at the heart or center of all the universe. I do believe that God has a Physical body and just like us he has a spirit. I also believe that his influence through the Holy Ghost can reach everywhere.

Now the topic of God having multiple wives? I honestly doubt it, but I don't rule it out either. I think that polygamy in Heaven will be a rare exception. I know that there was a lot of interesting discussion on this in old Mormon literature, but really that stuff is over 125+ years old and it was not the focus of our point of view just like it was not Abraham's, or Isaac's who were also polygamists.