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We are all products of the social welfare state that has deteriorated and nearly destroyed the capitalist system. We are on the verge of implementing world socialism democratically here in America, and this kind of analysis is exactly why.

Damn I hate to agree with you so strongly. I really, really wish you were totally wrong - but you're not.

One debate that I've never seen or heard about is whether we can vote ourselves into slavery. The Germans did it in 1933. We are on the verge of doing so if we elect another Democrat President and a Democrat Congress.

The very concept of whether or not we can vote ourselves into slavery is paradoxical. Certainly I am able to vote against my own freedom. I may even be foolish enough to do so. The real philosophical disconnect comes in whether I can vote to deprive another man of his freedom. I believe that the Founding Fathers would have answered with a resounding "NO!", but they weren't foolish enough to believe that we would never do that. That's why our government is a republic, NOT a democracy.

As our republic and our populace are currently headed, we are bound for that slavery despite their, and our best efforts. How we prevent that becomes the critical debate.

Do we win in the marketplace of ideas, or by other means (you both know what I'm talking about, I'm just not going to say it in an open forum). Either way is fraught with peril, as the Founding Fathers again recognized. They did what they had to do. I'm not sure yet what we have to do, but to say that I'm dissatisfied with the current state of our nation is laughably understated.

The very concept of whether or not we can vote ourselves into slavery is paradoxical. Certainly I am able to vote against my own freedom. I may even be foolish enough to do so. The real philosophical disconnect comes in whether I can vote to deprive another man of his freedom

We settled that question pretty handily about 150 years ago. It only cost 500,000 dead and wounded so it's pretty easy to see how the lesson was forgotten so quickly.

For the record, I don't think there's any philosophical disconnect at all. One cannot legally sell oneself into chattel bondage in this country. That issue was settled also.

I'm sorry to keep flogging "Atlas Shrugged" but there's a storyline in there that addresses your point quite directly during the trial of Hank Reardon. You really should take the time to read that book.

I'm not sure yet what we have to do,

I don't know if I ever shared Claire Wolf's quote on that question but in case I haven't here it is:

America is at that akward stage. It's too late to work within the system and too early to start shooting the bastards."

I'd say she summed up our predicament pretty well.

L

One debate that I've never seen or heard about is whether we can vote ourselves into slavery.

We've had it here on FR many times in the past... Just last year I posted this:

--- the Bill of Rights and the 14th Amendment make it clear that the peoples rights to life, liberty, or property are not to be infringed, abridged or denied, -- by any level of government in the USA.

Marshall made much the same point in Marbury, back in 1803:
"-- The question, whether an act, repugnant to the constitution, can become the law of the land, is a question deeply interesting to the United States; but happily, not of an intricacy proportioned to its interest.
It seems only necessary to recognize certain principles, supposed to have been long and well established, to decide it.
That the people have an original right to establish, for their future govern-ment, such principles as, in their opinion, shall most conduce to their own happiness, is the basis on which the whole American fabric has been erected.
The exercise of this original right is a very great exertion; nor can it, nor ought it, to be frequently repeated. The principles, therefore, so established, are deemed fundamental.
And as the authority from which they proceed is supreme, and can seldom act, they are designed to be permanent. --"

Thus we see the fundamental principles of personal liberty in our Constitution as permanent.
Any amendments that violated those principles would be null, void, and repugnant at enactment.

The very concept of whether or not we can vote ourselves into slavery is paradoxical. Certainly I am able to vote against my own freedom. I may even be foolish enough to do so. The real philosophical disconnect comes in whether I can vote to deprive another man of his freedom. I believe that the Founding Fathers would have answered with a resounding "NO!", but they weren't foolish enough to believe that we would never do that. That's why our government is a republic, NOT a democracy.

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A little discussed issue when observing the state of the constitution 2007 is that initially the founding fathers only gave the right to vote to free male property owners. That has since been amended(smile). I don't have problems amending the free male part, but the property owner issue has amazing possibilities. If we were to redefine "property" as the ability to pay tax to support government operations, and only allow tax payers to vote, you would have a government much closer to the one the founding fathers envisioned.
Amazingly, only fifty percent of wage earners pay any tax. Obviously, it doesn't take a genius to figure out that the majority of voters have no stake in wealth creation. Wealth creation, however, is totally what runs the government and enables it to enforce the voters wishes. The democrats have seized power by pandering to this class of non productive individual voters and "buying their votes. This costs these voters nothing and reaps them great rewards. We vote in our self interest. Taxpayers want the government to spend less more wisely. Non taxpayers want the government to take more from the taxpayers and give it to them. This is a situation that will destroy a free society. Freedom is not free, it must be earned. Those that don't contribute should not vote .

What can the taxpayer do? Quite simple....revolt. We are not obligated to pay tax The founding fathers said our rights are God given. No government has a right to take our freedom. We hold much more power than we realize. A small minority of revolting taxpayers can make their concerns very apparent to our servants in government. Since we can never go back to property voting laws, tax revolt is the only way to put a halt to democratic tyranny.