Posted on 02/02/2007 12:23:59 PM PST by John Jorsett
Troops from the U.S. Army and Marine Corps are still complaining about the "inadequate stopping power" of the 5.56mm round used in the M-16 family of assault rifles. Last year, the army did a study of current 5.56mm M855 round, in response to complaints. Troops reported many reports where enemy fighters were hit with one or more M855 rounds and kept coming. The study confirmed that this happened, and discovered why. If the M855 bullet hits slender people at the right angle, and does not hit a bone, it goes right through. That will do some soft tissue damage, but nothing immediately incapacitating. The study examined other military and commercial 5.56mm rounds and found that none of them did the job any better. The study concluded that, if troops aimed higher, and fired two shots, they would have a better chance of dropping people right away. The report recommended more weapons training for the troops, so they will be better able to put two 5.56mm bullets where they will do enough damage to stop oncoming enemy troops. Marines got the same advice from their commanders. But infantrymen in the army and marines both continue to insist that the problem is not with their marksmanship, but with the 5.56mm bullet. Marines say they have used captured AK-47 rifles in combat, and found that the lower velocity, and larger, 7.62mm bullets fired by these weapons were more effective in taking down enemy troops.
The army study did not address complaints about long range shots (over 100 meters), or the need for ammo that is better a blasting through doors and walls. The army had been considering a switch of a larger (6.8mm) round, and the Special Forces has been testing such a round in the field. But a switch is apparently off the table at the moment. The army report was not well received by the troops, and there is still much grumbling in the ranks over the issue.
The Russians appear to have mostly given up on the 5.45mm round for now and continue to issue 7.62x39 for their domestic forces. 5.45 now appears to be limited to SMG-type use.
I own one gun - an SKS which uses the 7.62 rounds. I bought 1,000 rounds but only have about 940 left. ;)
It packs a pretty good punch and I am shocked at the accuracy I was able to achieve with the adjustable sights and no scope.
It's amazing what you can get for $105.
I think XM193 in my 1x8.25 twist 18" barrel is best all-around, but if the US military must stick with their huge stockpile of M855 they oughtta try using it from a 1x7 twist 24" barrel and see what happens.
... Or just go back to .308 Winchester and forget all about this 'twist/grain/bbl length' baloney.
Point of info - what you're using shoots the 7.62mm x 39mm round. The 7.62mm NATO round is 7.62x*51*mm. Considerably more powerful.
Interesting, did not know that. They probably learned the same lesson, but actually did something about it.
GASP!!!!!!
Is one of them SMOKING????
For Shame !!!
<\sarc>
How about NO?
HOLLOWPOINTS WILL NOT PENETRATE BODY ARMOR OR BUILDINGS.
Or just shoot em twice...
Semper Fi,
NYLeatherneck
Which means mine has even a lower muzzle velocity. I do like the low recoil the guns design offers. Virtually none, actually.
I'm no gun nut so I gotta ask, what ever happened to the .226 (I think)? Wasn't that basically a .22 with a pointier bullet and a couple of lbs of gunpowder in each cartridge? ;) I heard the deadly part was the muzzle velocity.
Actually, it was apparently driven by economics as the major factor. Converting everyone over to 5.45 would have cost the Russians more money than they had, considering that they had literal mountains of 7.62x39 sitting around in depots and their *entire* infantry logistics system was built around that round.
Their experiences in Afghanistan also lead them to that conclusion, but it seems that they'd made the decision prior to the end of their time there.
Can you just imagine a laser type weapon where the "deadly force" from the weapon hits the target INSTANTLY, and in a perfect straight line?! That would be truly amazing. And we may just get something like it relatively soon.
1) Someone sould check the date of that report - it sounds like about the tenth iteration of 'reports' that started about 1965 to my recollection.
That being about the time they decided to replace the M-14 with a rifle the Air Force had selected before them - electing powder jams over potential for rust.
Same time a Colt representative told me the .223 was better because it tumbled!
2) Seems to me that when "the Army" does a study they could find a few participants who had actually USED the weapons they were studying.
3) The "Marines picked up AK-47 and used them in the field" is also a recycled truism from the 'advisor' days prior to 1965.
4) On another note - did I not note somewhere that all or most Special Ops units are armed with the (obsolete/anequated/not european enough) .45 ACP rather than the 'wounds are better than kills' 9MM?
Probably thinking of the old .220 Swift. Huge case with a bitty 40 grain (IIRC) bullet and around 4,000 fps MV. Was supposedly very hard on barrel life, but a wickedly accurate varmint rifle.
Of course, doesn't the Geneva Convention also prohibit cutting off the heads of prisoners, as well as using film of prisoners being tortured and murdered for propaganda purposes?
The ban on dum dums (from the dum dum armory in India) dates to the Hague Treaty at the turn of the 20th century. Geneva updated "expanding bullets" to "unecessary suffering", or some such wording. Ironically you can't deer hunt in most (all?) states with FMJ, only expanding bullets, so as to not cause "unecessary suffering". There have been several rulings by the JAG that the ban on expanding bullets applies only in conflicts between signatory powers, and that expanding bullets can be used in counterterrorism operations, which imo would apply in Iraq. Since the 5.56 tumbles on impact, I'm not sure it would make much difference though.
US out of NATO?
A couple of pounds in each cartridge? That would be a 14,000 grain charge!
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