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To: cogitator
Which civilizations? Those of the Medieval Warm Period of approximately 900--1300 AD? Those of the minimas that occurred between 1650--1850, with brief warmings between them? What parameters of definition are being cited here for "civilization"? For that matter, please define "climate stability."

Technology which hasn't been needed and therefore not thought of nor invented yet could certainly provide underground living habitats, covered fields, desalinization from all that extra water, whether occurring from expansion due to temperature rise or melting fresh water ice. Sodium Chloride and other alkalies like Sodium Bicarbonate can be combined and baked to form relatively durable substances, so why couldn't we use the salt from desalination, mixed with alkaline salts left after small lake evaporation, perhaps infused with some sort of nano fiber made from all that excess carbon to create habitats, dikes, or other useful things in the future? For all we know, the impetus of climate change will spur human technological development in ways we cannot even imagine today. These sorts of technological adaptations are available to us today. We are researching and developing technologies that will allow human habitation of the Moon and Mars, not to mention space.

We can breed all sorts of plants that are adapted to all sorts of conditions, from less light, less moisture, salt-saturation, extreme heat, even soiless cultivation right now, so why couldn't this be done even more efficiently and to a greater extent in the future?

Why would freshwater resources be reduced? We have advanced recycling capabilities right now and, as noted, desalination techniques.The reports I have seen forecast droughts in some places and torrential rain in others. Since all the water we have right now has always been on Earth, if we can free up that which is presently frozen, we will have access to increased supplies and if we can transport hydrocarbons by pipeline, then transporting water will be possible, as well. If we have a century before coastal communities are threatened, then we have enough time to relocate people, build even better dikes/seawalls, just like the Dutch have already done, elevate habitat or perhaps cope in ways we haven't yet thought of.

Do you have actual sources for these "scholarly papers"? I am afraid I don't have a high tolerance for argument by intimidation. I saw my first "scholarly" attempt at this sort of fear-mongering in 1965 when the appraisal company where I worked received Lester Brown's huge, expensive resource maps *proving* that we would run out of all commodities and the ability to feed humanity by the 1990s. I remember Ehrlich writing and being promoted for his neo-Malthusian ideas in the 1970s. There have been "proofs" of all sorts of catastrophes for hundreds of years and not a single one has stopped the human race from adapting, mainly because none came to pass.I have been hearing about excessive heat from global warming for 19 years now and hardwoods still grow in the upper Midwest, winter still occurs, rivers and lakes still freeze, rains come in the warmer seasons, crops grow, people live on barrier islands and along coastlines and commoditties still exist and are utilized.

At one time, it was thought to be *impossible* to travel in space, due to the threat of ionizing radiation. There were once no cures for diseases that today are curable or at least survivable. Prosthetics have advanced to the point where amputees compete competently in many physical sports and some soldiers return to the battlefield with them. Cataracts were once non-removable, then, even though removed, necessitated contacts or thick glasses afterwards. Today we have implanted lenses and it is even possible for some people to regain focusing capability with the interocular implants.

"Impossible" is what spurs invention. Scholarly reports come and go. Earth and humanity, so far, still endure.
110 posted on 01/30/2007 12:44:50 PM PST by reformedliberal ("Eliminate the mullahs and Islam shall disappear in fifty years." Ayatollah Khomeini)
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To: reformedliberal
Which civilizations? Those of the Medieval Warm Period of approximately 900--1300 AD? Those of the minimas that occurred between 1650--1850, with brief warmings between them? What parameters of definition are being cited here for "civilization"? For that matter, please define "climate stability."

The slight ups-and-downs you note are part of the Holocene's remarkable climate stability. "Climate stability" means relatively small changes in climate. Best illustrated with an image:

The section in the far right-hand "column" is the Holocene. The figure below expands it.

Starting 11,000 years ago -- that's climate stability.

Why would freshwater resources be reduced? We have advanced recycling capabilities right now and, as noted, desalination techniques.

Both require energy and are expensive for the places that are going to need them. One of the main concerns is shrinking mountain glaciers, which supply water to a lot of people.

Do you have actual sources for these "scholarly papers"? I am afraid I don't have a high tolerance for argument by intimidation.

I wasn't trying to be intimidating. Here's some:

deMenocal, Science, 2001: Cultural Responses to Climate Change During the Late Holocene. I can only give you the abstract:

"Modern complex societies exhibit marked resilience to interannual-to- decadal droughts, but cultural responses to multidecadal-to-multicentury droughts can only be addressed by integrating detailed archaeological and paleoclimatic records. Four case studies drawn from New and Old World civilizations document societal responses to prolonged drought, including population dislocations, urban abandonment, and state collapse. Further study of past cultural adaptations to persistent climate change may provide valuable perspective on possible responses of modern societies to future climate change." (full article is subscription only)

Fagan, "The Long Summer: How Climate Changed Civilization" (book, search Amazon)

Hodell et al., Nature, 1995, "Possible role of climate in the collapse of Classic Maya civilization"

This isn't a paper, but it is easily available online:

CLIMATE AND CIVILIZATION
The Scientific Evidence for Climate Change, and How Our Response to It May Influence National Policy

Start reading at "But at the end of this deglaciation..."

NOW, there is one school of thought that climate change also forced urbanization. Could be true, but there is good evidence that organized societies suffered considerably, and sometimes collapsed, when climate went bad unexpectedly. And there's always the example of Easter Island, too.

I have been hearing about excessive heat from global warming for 19 years now and hardwoods still grow in the upper Midwest, winter still occurs, rivers and lakes still freeze, rains come in the warmer seasons, crops grow, people live on barrier islands and along coastlines and commoditties still exist and are utilized.

Did you know that there is a defined trend of lakes and rivers freezing later in the autumn and earlier in the spring over the past 150 years?

Warming may threaten Vermont maples

"McNulty said virtually every one of the computer programs that scientists use to predict how a changing climate will affect the Earth show that sugar maples will essentially disappear from Vermont by the end of this century." (But it's good for Quebec)

124 posted on 01/30/2007 2:49:58 PM PST by cogitator
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To: reformedliberal
Impossible" is what spurs invention. Scholarly reports come and go. Earth and humanity, so far, still endure.

Bravo ! (stands up clapping).

136 posted on 01/30/2007 5:29:06 PM PST by happygrl
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