Posted on 01/18/2007 9:07:25 AM PST by rellimpank
Let's have a vote on 'Totalization Agreement'
Nevada Sen. John Ensign warns that -- if coupled with a pending immigration reform bill that stalled last year -- a U.S.-Mexican "Totalization Agreement" could allow U.S. Social Security benefits to flow to huge numbers of illegal Mexican immigrants.
So the senator has introduced a bill that would require the Senate and House to vote on the agreement. Under current law, should President Bush sign the deal and Congress take no action on it, the deal would automatically go into effect after 60 days.
Totalization agreements are designed to prevent dual Social Security taxation on workers who hail from one country but work in another. Workers are allowed to combine their time worked in both countries to qualify for Social Security benefits in one or the other. The United States now has such deals with 21 other nations.
(Excerpt) Read more at reviewjournal.com ...
Good move by Ensign. Put candidates on the record for where they stand on voting for benefits for immigrants.
That the government taxes foreign workers for this is wrong in my opinion.
Many in the house of reps have objected to the totalization agreement with Mexico. This is Ensign's press release on that.
http://ensign.senate.gov/record.cfm?id=267272&
ENSIGN CALLS FOR OVERSIGHT BEFORE SOCIAL SECURITY BENEFITS ARE SENT TO FOREIGNERS
US-Mexico Social Security Agreement Provides Benefits to Illegal Immigrants
Monday, January 8, 2007
Washington, D.C. – Senator John Ensign introduced a bill that would require Congressional approval before Social Security benefits could be paid to foreign workers who were employed in the United States. Ensign’s bill could prevent illegal immigrants, many of whom have committed identity theft, from collecting Social Security benefits under an agreement the Bush Administration finalized with Mexico. The agreement allows U.S. citizens and foreign nationals to receive Social Security benefits for work performed in each country, a move that will provide benefits for illegal immigrants.
“The U.S.-Mexico Totalization Agreement is unacceptable and threatens the retirement benefits of hardworking Americans while rewarding those who have committed a felony such as identity theft,” said Ensign. “My legislation is important to ensure that public debate, scrutiny and analysis take place before vital Social Security dollars are sent overseas.”
Under current law, a Totalization Agreement becomes effective after it is signed by the President and submitted to Congress, unless one or more chambers specifically reject it. If no Congressional action is taken, the agreements are effective 60 days after submission to Congress. Under Ensign’s bill, the Social Security Totalization Agreement Reform Act, a resolution approved by both the House and Senate, will be required before an agreement could become effective. A companion bill was introduced in the House last week by Representative Barbara Cubin.
In 2004, the United States reached a Totalization Agreement with Mexico, but the President has yet to submit it to Congress. The expected impact was made public by a Freedom of Information Act request, which makes it clear that the agreement does nothing to prevent employees from collecting benefits for work done while in the United States illegally. The Government Accountability Office has indicated that this agreement will increase the number of unauthorized workers eligible for Social Security benefits.
“We should not be rewarding people for illegal work,” said Ensign. “This is a matter of fairness to the American people and a matter of fiscal responsibility.”
http://poe.house.gov/News/DocumentSingle.aspx?DocumentID=55315
Poe Co-sponsors Bills Prohibiting Social Security Benefits for Illegals
Without action from Congress benefits will automatically go into effect
Today Congressman Ted Poe co-sponsored two pieces of legislation to prohibit illegal aliens from collecting Social Security benefits.
One bill, H.Res. 18, expresses the disapproval by the House of Representatives of the Social Security Totalization Agreement. The other, the Social Security Protection Act, will prohibit illegal aliens from receiving Social Security benefits during the time they were in the country illegally.
Under the Social Security Totalization Agreement, illegal immigrants who have been working in this country illegally would be eligible to receive Social Security benefits if they gain legal status through amnesty or some other plan.
"People who break our laws and enter this country illegally should not have the same benefits as American citizens who have paid into the system,” said Poe. “Congress must not reward illegal behavior.”
Once signed by the President, the Social Security Totalization Agreement will not become law until after it has been presented to Congress. Once presented, Congress has 60 days to vote to reject the Totalization Agreement otherwise the agreement automatically goes into effect.
The Social Security Protection Act, introduced by fellow Texan John Carter, will prohibit illegal aliens from receiving Social Security benefits for the time they were in the country illegally.
Specifically, Carter’s bill prohibits social security from paying out benefits to any U.S. citizen for wages earned for any time they were in the United States illegally. It also instructs the Commissioner of Social Security to recompute all existing benefits to that citizen to account for any Social Security taxes paid while working without authorization.
Congressman Poe serves on the House Committee on Foreign Affairs, Congressional Port Security Caucus and the Immigration Reform Caucus. For more information on Congressman Poe, please visit our website at http://poe.house.gov/ .
I agree in part. First, it should require a vote. I'm tired of politicians ducking responsibility.
Second, workers who steal social security numbers should be prosecuted, not rewarded.
But if a worker did NOT steal a social security number, and they performed work, and paid money into the social security system under a valid number assigned to them, those workers SHOULD qualify for social security just like any other foreign worker, even if they did not have permission to be here.
That's not "rewarding them for illegal work" (btw, illegal work is a misnomer), it's rewarding them for paying into the system for legal work done which they did not have the right to do.
We would rightly throw an employer in jail if the employer refused to pay illegal workers, or refused to pay the social security for the illegal workers. Why should the federal government get away with not paying? This isn't "government giveaway", we still live under the fiction that the social security system is a pay-as-you-go system, and the illegals are paying into the system.
.
ping
That's an interesting shade of gray. What you appear to be saying is that work performed in concert with a crime is not illegal. If the worker cannot legally perform work, then any work performed is illegal.
The act of printing money is illegal, but so is the actual phoney money, too. I disagree with your fine distinction, I think.
Oh, please, enough of the "the aliens pay SS" junk.
They are a net drain on SS and all of our society.
Most are paid cash. No SS paid there!
And when they obtain a tax ID# they get billions back in EIC, refunds.
http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalfindings.html
Treasury Department Report. The results of our study are also buttressed by an analysis of illegal alien tax returns done by the Inspector General's Office of the Department of Treasury in 2004.35 That study found that 55 percent of illegal aliens who filed income tax returns using tax identification numbers had no federal income tax liability. While higher than the 45 percent estimated in this study, it must be remembered that this figure was only for those who filed tax returns using a tax identification number. These are all individuals who expected refunds, otherwise they would not have gone to the trouble of getting tax identification numbers and filing a return. But like our estimates, the Inspector General's report indicates that roughly half of illegals have no tax liability, reflecting their very low incomes and large number of dependents. ________________
http://www.ustreas.gov/tigta/congress/congress_03102004.htm
The number of ITINs issued in the last few years has increased dramatically, climbing from 1.1 million in 2001 to 1.5 million in 2002--a one-year increase of about 36 percent. Normally, ITINs would be used to file a Form 1040NR—U.S. Nonresident Alien Income Tax Return. However, many ITINs are used to file Forms 1040, which creates challenges for tax administration. Our analysis of Forms 1040 filed in Tax Year 2001 with ITINs found that approximately 530,000 Forms 1040 were filed with ITINs as the primary number by aliens who resided in the U.S., but who were not authorized to work and, in general, to reside in the U.S.
* These returns reported adjusted gross income of $10.7 billion. After tax deductions and credits, these tax returns reported a total liability of $184 million. * Over half of the tax returns reported no tax liability, and $522 million in tax refunds were claimed on these returns.
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0701/04/gb.01.html
BECK: This is insanity. You know, I just saw a number -- and tell me if this number is right, if you even have it -- I just saw a number on, in 2004, what we paid illegal aliens in tax refunds, 2004. Do you know this number?
CAMAROTA: Yes, I believe -- the figure I`ve heard is about $10 billion. That`s based on estimates that the Treasury Department has done itself, $10 billion they paid back to illegal aliens.
BECK: That is insane. We`re paying them $10 billion, and we can`t arrest them, we can`t even find them, we don`t even know -- $10 billion? And now we`re giving them Social Security, one that we don`t need another country to sabotage for us. We`re doing it ourselves. The whole thing is going to collapse.
CAMAROTA: Yes, and what`s worse than that is, that the IRS issues them tax I.D. numbers so that they can then file their income tax with their false Social Security numbers so that we can give them their $10 billion back.
BECK: OK, all right. So the last thing here -- let me just role play here for a second. I`m an illegal alien. I have to now go to the government and prove to the government that I have a fake I.D., that I bought a fake Social Security card on the street in the black market, and then the government rewards me for that, right?
CAMAROTA: Yes, in effect, sure. Once you get legal status, then you apply for the credits that you earned while you were an illegal alien. And the way you do that is like you said: You show your false documents. You bring out your bogus tax returns, and so forth.
Since when are criminals entitled to profit from the commision of a crime?
How could they pay money into the system as an illegal? Any ssn they used would by definition be invalid.
I'm getting tired of the mantra that we already have totalization agreements with 21 countries so a 22nd one wouldn't really matter. Totalization works under three conditions:
1. The number of participants is relatively small.The totalization agreement with Mexico fails on all three counts: 1. Millions of Mexicans would be covered instead of thousands or Brits, Swedes, etc. 2. Lots of Mexicans here to be covered by us, very few US citizens working in Mexico to be covered by them. 3. Our SS benefits are much greater than Mexico's and our payout is "progressive" so low wage workers get far more in proportion than the average worker, while Mexico's system has a proportional payout.
2. The number of foreigners working in the US is similar to the number of US citizens working in that country.
3. The social security programs are similar so there is no great benefit of choosing one over the other.
The totalization agreement with Mexico is probably many times bigger than the other 21 agreements put together. This is something to analyze openly and carefully to see if it benefits the country, not something to sneak through secretly because it only benefits a few US citizens.
Ensign is on target. I support Bush on most everything. This thing is nuts.
And why is our government for that matter?
Sorry, but your reasoning is extremely faulty. First, in order to get a social security number the illegal would have to have ILLEGAL documents, illegally obtained. This is a stfelony. Any number obtained this way is NOT legal but only has the appearance of being legal. The money the worker earned was earned illegally therefore they should be prosecuted and no benefits should be payable to them. Illegal means just that, illegal, deal with it. Any congress critter or president who signs onto such a law needs to be thrown out of office.
A person can be here on a legal visa, and can obtain a number, and work. Then their visa can expire.
But beyond that, the act of obtaining a social security number "illegally" does not make the number "illegal". I presume the method for obtaining the ss illegally would be to falsify information on an application.
At some point everything an illegal does is illegal. While not arguing that point, it's a little like suggesting that if you drive 40 in a 20 mph zone, and do so for a minute, we should actually write you 60 tickets, because each second you were again going over the speed limit.
I'd argue again that denying a worker the fruits of the social security taxes we collected from them is like allowing an employer not to pay the worker for work they did -- but I'm guessing a lot of people here would be HAPPY to let that happen as well.
Suppose we simply passed a law sending all the social security money paid by the illegal BACK to the illegal? Fact is, that might be a better deal for the illegal than allowing them into our system -- after all, wouldn't we ALL love to just get our social security taxes back?
If a an illegal worker works, and the government takes from them PAYMENT into the social security system, and those payments are into a valid social security number assigned to the worker, I'm willing to let that worker get credit. If the government doesn't want illegals participating, then don't collect the social security payments.
SUPPOSE we simply enforce the damn laws and keep the illegal aliens out of the country!
Problem solved!
This doesn't compute and, like I have already pointed out, the # itself is illegal and invalid having been obtained by fraud. You may think these illegals using criminal acts to obtain a SS# are entiltled but they are not.
Throw the Prez and any congress critters who support this out on their ear. Period, end of discussion.
If you are here on a work visa, you can legally obtain a social security number.
Then, your work visa can expire, and you are now here illegally.
BUT, you have a valid, legally-obtained social security number.
Which you are supposed to keep, because you had earnings on it, and if you get another work visa you would use the same number.
An invalid social security number is one that is not obtained from the social security administration. A stolen social security number is one that was assigned to a different person. It is illegal to use someone else's social security number, and it is illegal to obtain a social security number under false means.
But a social security number obtained from the SSA is not an "illegal" number, OR an "invalid" number.
I disagree with your opinion on this matter, as I believe that encouraging people who are breaking the law to at least break as few laws as possible is a good thing, not a bad thing. In order to work, you need a social security number. I have no problem with rewarding people who are here illegally if they take the time to obtain a valid social security number assigned to their name, rather than stealing someone else's or using a made-up one which could well belong to someone else.
I realise you disagree with me, but there's no point in arguing semantically -- calling their valid SS number "illegal" doesn't change either your or my opinion of the matter.
If the problem is that poor people paying into social security get back more money than they put in, maybe we should change that for illegals if you don't want them to benefit the same as legal poor people do. But starting with the presumption that paying into social security isn't really a good deal for anybody, I think any person who pays into the SS system, with a number that can be tracked to them, should get what they are paying for.
Likewise, if an illegal pays a store for a car, I don't think the store should be allowed to repossess the car if they find out the person was illegal, under the argument that the money they used to buy the car was obtained "illegally".
I will note that there is no law currently on the books that designate money earned by people here illegally is "illegal money" and subject to seizure, although I hate to put ideas into people's heads because tomorrow Tom Tancredo might make that part of his platform and we'd look even sillier.
Once again you show your bias towards law breakers and stick you head square up your butt. These people are breaking the law, they are NOT entitiled to SS benefits, period. To change the law so these law breaking felons and con artists draw SS is a national scandal and the Pols who are responsible should all be run out of office.
Your use of the word "entitled" is simply stating your conclusion as evidence. They are "entitled" to whatever the law SAYS they are entitled to.
We are arguing over whether, as policy, they SHOULD be allowed to get social security if they pay into the system. That's why I note that arguing over whether their social security number is called "invalid" or "illegal" is not important.
The question is whether a person who pays into social security, in a manner consistant with tracking the money to that person, should be denied that money because of his resident status.
Suppose someone is a fugitive from the law. They should be in jail, but they jumped bail, or escaped. They rightfully should be residence of a jail cell, so wherever they are living, they are living illegally.
They work their whole lives, earning a pension and social security.
Should they be denied their pension and social security because they were illegally NOT in jail, and therefore they should not have had a job.
I realise they would have a VALID social security number, while the illegal had to obtain a valid number possibly through false methods (you've ignored those who had valid numbers but simply have expired visas).
But we require them to get social security numbers, much like we required the mob bosses to pay their income taxes, and were able to prosecute them for failing to do so. I'm sure you don't want to give illegals a way to validly obtain social security numbers.
I'm certain you simply think that, if you don't have a right to be in the country, you don't have a right to get what you paid for while you were in the country, at least when what you paid for was social security.
I happen to think that, in some circumstances, the punishment for being here illegally should NOT include the loss of income from your work. I don't mind arguing over that point, but I won't argue any more about the issuing of social security numbers.
If the illegal didn't steal someone else's number, I'm NOT going to fault them for, of necessity, having to lie to GET a social security number. I'd much rather them get their own number under false pretenses than use MY number.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.