Keith Ellison and the Jefferson Koran (Barf Alert)

The Nation ^ | 1/3/07 | John Nichols

[beyond the sea]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/thenation/20070103/cm_thenation/1153689_1

Keith Ellison and the Jefferson Koran

Despite a cynical campaign by those who would establish a religious test for holding office in these United States, newly elected Minnesota Congressman Keith Ellison will swear his oath of office tomorrow on the Koran.

The objections to allowing Ellison, the first Muslim to be elected to Congress, to take the oath as he chooses were so absurd in character and contention that they could easily be dismissed as a sideshow. But it would be dangerous to do so. The fact is that there has for a number of years now been a concerted effort by sincere if misguided religious zealots and conservative political strategists who delight in exploiting fears of diversity to redefine the American experiment as a Christian religious endeavor.

History does not provide even a soft grounding for this fantasy. The Founders of the country were men and women of the Enlightenment who, while surely imperfect in their thoughts and deeds, wisely sought to burst the chains of what Thomas Jefferson referred to as "monkish ignorance and superstition." They revolted against the divine right of kings, rejected the construct of state-sponsored religion and wrote a Constitution that not only guaranteed freedom of religion but required that: "The Senators and Representatives...and all executive and judicial officers, both of the United States and of the several states, shall be bound by oath or affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States."

[drpix]

CORRECTION:
"...changes in the newly developing "Eurabia" to better... "

[Irish Queen]

Actually progressive-humanists politicians who place their hands on a Bible are first class hypocrites. Charles Darwin's "Origins of the Species" or even a dictionary would be more true to their belief systems.

[silverleaf]

You ought to read "Because They Hate" by Brigitte Gabriel- who grew up as a Lebanese Christian.

Then get back to us the entire worlds' experiences with islam over the past 100 years, and on the realities of the communities of "millions" of American muslims you suggest are hypocrites, merely putting in face time at the mosques with no core belief in or long term intention to follow their religion's dictates.

[silverleaf]

I don't see the problem with him swearing in using the Koran

You don't see a problem with an elected rep of YOUR FEDERAL GOVERNMENT swearing on a book that tells him you and 3/4 of the rest of the world must be converted to his beliefs, enslaved, or killed -

and that you, as an inferior being, may be lied to as a matter of principle during the process of accomplishing one of the three ends above?

No this is not an exaggeration of islam - just core dogma - which is tap-danced around by relativists who think no one except "fundies" really literally follows their religious teachings anyway. How easy it is for them to be placated by a line of Koranic poetry.

and no, you will not find these core beliefs of the earthly duty of muslims to effect forcible conversion, enslavement or execution - in the Bible. The Christian Bible makes it clear any judgement on you for your spiritual decisions comes from God - not from Achmed's 16 yr old daughter wearing a bomb vest packed with nails and rat poison. Catholics were not "feared 45 years ago in the same manner" as those who are now bound by their beliefs and training to convert, enslave, or execute you and your children for your beliefs or to tolerate and shelter and even admire those who would.

One of the reasons the jihadis went off on Pope Benedict was/is his effort to push muslim leadership to the wall on their pious statements about their belief in common core religious values they say they hold with Catholics/Christians. His questions ... does that include "not lying" and "not killing"?

[alecqss]

Could not better respond myself.

[zook]

We aren't "Europa."

I just wonder if you or some of the others here have ever known any Muslim Americans. I grew up next door to a Muslim family and they were the nicest, most "American" family you'd ever want to meet.

I went to school with American Muslims and they seemed to differ little from non-Muslims in their civic behavior, hopes, activities, etc.

It does no good at all to lump people together based on their religious faith. Nor does it do any good to judge all people of a given faith based on some extremist interpretation of their holy book.

[zook]

For the past 100 years, Muslims have lived and worked peacefully in this country. They've also served in our nation's military, even died for their country.

Every Muslim is not a hater, and this I think is especially true of American Muslims.

[SQUID]

Well, it can't if it wants to call itself a democracy. It simply can't.. However, that is the way in for many types of groups to establish influence or control; in this case Islam.

Please remember that the Constitution was based off of Judeo/Christan values not Kuranic. They are all the same you say? Not so. The Kuran is void of an equal standing with Jews, Christians, and others. The Kuran does not allow Islam to be trumped by a secular government if Muslims are the majority in that society, but you can't do anything about it because they call Islam a religion. We are the ones who equate it to ourselves. An idea that they themselves do not exercise. But we must if we are who we are! Even to our detriment.

In my opinion it's more than just a religion. It's a political ideology. Sharia law is political/legal theory of a Muslim. These theories and laws are founded based on the Kuran. The Islamic societies are a reflection of the Sharia laws that have been in place for many centuries and look at the societies that it has produced. Do they resemble anything like a tolerant society of the West? No.

So based on this, a Muslim is highly suspect more so than any other individual because of the history and track record that proceeds him and the values that he chose to identify himself with. Values that are not equal to those that make up a democracy.

We just have to sit back and watch....closely.

[Lijahsbubbe]

Guess this bit of history won't make it into the newspapers, even though it is incredibly relevant.

They tell us Jefferson had a Koran, but they won't tell us what Jefferson thought of Islam. Well, now you know!

Headline of the article in the St. Paul Pioneer Press today:

"Ellison to Use Jefferson's Quran"

Makes it sound as if Jefferson was Muslim!

[silverleaf]

Stick with what you "think". Brush aside suggestions to do more reading. If you do not read the book I suggested (or others- or just spend some time reading what comes out in the mosques and rallies in Dearborn) then you will remain blissfully confident .... in what you think.

At least you will be in the majority of what most Americans "think", for now. That what muslims hear in their mosques, and read in their Koran are different than what they think.

That the American muslims of "100 years ago" are the same as the ones growing up here, and emigrating here, now.

That American muslims are willing to die to defend individual liberties such as full integration of women into society and other individual freedoms- that their children can love and marry Christians and jews, drink booze, porn, that Americans are free to stomp on the koran or ridicule prophet Mohamed. That American muslims alone among muslims, will die to defend dark but inevitable vices of individual freedom and free choice, especially in spiritual belief or nonbelief.

That they are good citizens willing to join the military and to defend America's allies. Including Israel.

That they are peaceful contented assimiliated citizens like the university-educated sons of the muslims who were born and raised in Britain and those who are being born and raised in France and northern Europe.

zook, the snow ball of clashing civilizations is heading downhill ever more rapidly and will soon be impossible to ignore as an aberration. Hopefully for America at least, before it becomes an avalanche.

"Because They Hate"- Brigitte Gabriel check it out- more about which to think

[CharlesWayneCT]

Jefferson had his Koran so he'd understand the thought process of the enemies of our country, the muslim pirates who said their religion made it both proper and in fact necessary for them to attack shipping of countries that did not worship Allah.

I wonder if he highlighted the places where the Koran said to kill those who were not Muslims.

[zook]

Yes, I do brush most of what you say aside. I know there are radical Muslims in the world and in America and that some of the latter may even be citizens.

But you are not the only one who has read books on American Muslims or who has years of experience living and working with Muslims. In fact, I repeat my question--have you had any similar experience?

Moreover, other than the fact that this Congressman is Muslim, do you have any evidence at all that he's not a "good American"?

Finally, regarding what you think it takes to be a "good American," I suggest that you've raised the bar far too high--many non-Muslim Americans might not go along with the agenda you've laid out there. For example, not all believe it's in America's best interests to have its soldiers fight for Israel. Now, I *do* happen to believe that it is, but that's a matter for spirited civic debate, and the fact that many Muslims might disagree doesn't make them bad Americans.

The ultimate result of your kind of talk is the relocation camp. I'll tell you this--good Americans like myself won't stand for it.

[Lijahsbubbe]

Moreover, other than the fact that this Congressman is Muslim, do you have any evidence at all that he's not a "good American"?

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/11/08/politics/main2163201.shtml

Ellison's campaign had to deal with reports of overdue parking tickets, late campaign finance reports and unpaid taxes. He also faced questions about anti-Semitism because of past ties with the Nation of Islam, a black Muslim group led by the confrontational Louis Farrakhan.

[zook]

This is all smoke. Show me the money.

[Lijahsbubbe]

This is all smoke. Show me the money.

No, this is common knowledge. Find it in any major news source for your 'money'.

[zook]

No, it's "smoke" in the sense that it consists of "reports," "alleged ties," "word has it that," etc.

*Allegations* of the sort you list here do not justify what you want to claim.

[Lijahsbubbe]

Reports indicate that he had accumulated over forty parking and traffic tickets, and that his license was suspended twice. Ellison also failed to pay all or part of his income taxes five separate years between 1992 and 2000, forcing the state and Internal Revenue Service to put liens on his home. He later paid in excess of $18,000.

LOL. Keep going down that river of denial. It won't change the facts!

PS, He takes donations from terrorists too.

[Lijahsbubbe]

Smoke 'em if you got 'em.

http://www.twincities.com/mld/twincities/15300360.ht

With the endorsements of the DFL and the most influential labor unions in the district, Ellison could be the front-runner. But he stumbled into some controversies coming out of the May 6 DFL endorsing convention.

He was forced to explain his association with the Nation of Islam and its controversial leader, Louis Farrakhan. Ellison, a Muslim, has denounced Farrakhan.

His only connection with the Nation of Islam, he said in an interview last week, was in helping to organize the 1995 Million Man March. He did so, he said, because he wanted to help African-American men who were struggling to find jobs get an education and avoid crime.

Last month, news reports revealed that Ellison's driver's license had recently been suspended for nonpayment of parking tickets and that he had been fined for failing to file state campaign finance reports on time.

Ellison has apologized for those mistakes. "I'm sorry about it. I've fixed it," he said.

[beyond the sea]

Yes, sir!!!

[OldSmaj]

is it really your opinion that the government should start discriminating against natural-born American citizens based solely on their religious beliefs? Beliefs, not actions?

Well, we have a very fine line to walk here, do we not?

The islamic religion preaches and demands actions that, if truly believed by the adherents thereto, would result in all manner of mayhem against those that did not believe in the tenets of the islamic religion.

In other words, the very beliefs of the adherents of the so-called religion, translates directly to action, adverse action.

This the great lie, the great lie that the adherents of the islamic religion deny vehemently on a daily basis.

But to answer your question...no, I do not advocate discrimination based simply upon the professed belief of a person, but common sense should be exercised, particularly when it comes to one such as the islamic religion.

Can you find the teachings in recent Catholicism that advocate the killing of any person not instantly converting to the Catholic religion?

Christianity, in any of it's many wardrobes...from Prostestant to Fundamental Baptist to Nut-case Snake Handler?

Mormonism, perhaps?

Nope...didn't think so.

And for any muslim that denies the teachings of the koran, then I submit that person is not a true believer and does not present a danger to us infidels.

But they are few and far between.

Islam is not a religion of peace.

Islam, by it's very nature, will not, cannot tolerate our system of government or our chosen way of life.