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To: stopem
"I pray President Bush will NOT give in to the Dems and he will use a veto pen on this abomination!

First of all, President Bush's administration wrote this agreement.  There's nothing for him to veto.  It is essentially a foreign policy agreement (a tax treaty), subject to approval by congress. It's not a bill written by congress, subject to a veto pen.

Secondly, Democrats aren't backing this agreement and Republican fighting against it. This is a non-partisan agreement, unless there is a Tom Tancredo party out there somewhere. Then it would be a partisan fight.

The hype surrounding this bill is just that, hype. An American working in England pays payroll taxes to the UK system and not SSA, yet can still retire in his home country of the USA and receive SS benefits as though he worked here all the time.  The reverse is also true. Hence, since there are more Americans working abroad then foreigners working here, we actually benefit from these programs.

Illegal immigrantion are a problem unto itself. We need to fix that problem directly, not screw around with other programs that are tangentially involved.

Something unfair can be found in everything and hyped to the rafters for knee jerk reactions. That's what is happening here and it's easy because the minute one attaches the compound noun "illegal-immigrant" to the debate all reason flies out the window.

A sidebar to this very article says: "The Social Security Administration estimates that it nets more than $600 million a year in payroll taxes under the system, and in 2004 it paid $206 million to about 102,000 foreign beneficiaries."  So the author can honestly state they are balanced in their reporting. But who the heck reads sidebars? 

Facts can be found at:
http://www.ssa.gov/pressoffice/factsheets/USandMexico.htm
http://waysandmeans.house.gov/media/pdf/ss/totalizationfacts.pdf

Here is a straight forward non hyped article on the subject. http://www.visalaw.com/03jul2/2jul203.html

 


54 posted on 01/04/2007 6:52:17 AM PST by HawaiianGecko (Victory goes to the player who makes the next-to-last mistake.)
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To: HawaiianGecko
The hype surrounding this bill is just that, hype. An American working in England pays payroll taxes to the UK system and not SSA, yet can still retire in his home country of the USA and receive SS benefits as though he worked here all the time. The reverse is also true. Hence, since there are more Americans working abroad then foreigners working here, we actually benefit from these programs.

There is a huge difference between most of the other countries and Mexico. For Social Security totalization to work with a country three criteria need to be met:

1. The number of participants has to be relatively small.
2. The number of people coming from the other country to the US has to be similar to the number going from the US to the other country.
3. The retirement program and average wage of each country has to be similar so there is no major incentive to prefer one country's plan over another.

An agreement with Mexico fails on all three points. 1. 15-20 million illegals is a huge number. 2. Vastly more Mexicans are working here than Americans in Mexico. 3. Our SS program is skewed to disproportionately pay the poor, while Mexico's provides payments proportionate to what you paid in. Also our payments would be much greater than Mexico's even without that skewing.

Such a treaty is a good idea with the UK, Germany or even (shudder) France because it is mutually beneficial. The benefits are almost all one way in such an agreement with Mexico.

59 posted on 01/04/2007 7:05:34 AM PST by KarlInOhio (Baker's Iraq Surrender Group - warming up the last helicopter out of Baghdad.)
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To: HawaiianGecko
I agree with your assessment that this issue was handled as a international trade agreement, and was not subject to debate, but I contend that the congress can, if it has the desire to, carve this out and handle it as legislation if it desires to.

It can may Mexico a separate issue, but will likely violate international agreements if it does.

But Mexico is a different cat to skin, and I believe that because of the illegality of the worker, this issue can be handled differently from normal ex-pat rules and regs.

I think it should.

Not because I am anti-illegal. I am a backer of Bush's worker plan, however I believe this issue could be part of the negotiations on the coming agreement. When and if it occurs.

61 posted on 01/04/2007 7:07:04 AM PST by Cold Heat ("Ward!.........Go easy on the beaver"!)
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