May the peace and love of our Lord Jesus Christ be with each of you.
Yesterday on this thread we had a series of exchanges during which, at one point, I was challenged to produce examples of the contradictions or errors in the Bible to which I alluded.
I demurred from responding until now, but decided that it would be unfair to several of you, who obviously put a great deal of effort into your responses to me (and to others), for me not to do so.
I am very hesitant to enter into that sort of debate, presenting textual problems with the Bible. It isn't because they don't exist and I am caught short, it is that I see a great deal of potential harm in the exercise.
First of all, we're on a thread on which there are folks who are deeply committed to the position that our Christian faith is utter rot and superstitious nonsense, and that any of us who truly adhere to it are theocrats-in-waiting, just looking for the opportunity to spring and cloak the world in darkness and despair.
Of course this is ludicrous, but it is a lurking fear, however illegitimate, of a large number of people who know very little about our religion or the Bible.
For those people, who are legion on this thread, Christianty is a scary negative thing, and Christians are, well ... US, you and me. So, when WE strive too aggressively over the theological points that have tragically divided Catholics and Proestants for some 450 years now, we do not very probably make much headway in convincing each other of our point of view, but we certainly convince those outside, looking in doubtfully, that Christianity is a quarrelsome religion peopled by vitriolic zealots. We also convince them, by the excessive zeal of our arguments with each other over relatively fine and, in many cases, unimportant disagreements over text that our Holy Bible, which we all revere, is a confused and tangled muddle. I found myself making a point that sounded very much like that on this very thread.
And that's a bad thing.
For if Christians cannot find a way to discuss different perspectives carefully, thoughtfully, and generously with each other, what hope is there at all that some suspicious bystander, watching from the outside, will be induced to come inside to ANY of our particular halls of Christian faith?
I DO want to discuss text with you, but we have to figure out a way beforehand to do it in a way that is measured, and respectful of the different Protestant and Catholic way of approaching these things, so that the non-Christians who read us discussing fine points of our faith will be able to say "Wow! That's an interesing point she has!! I hadn't thought of that! And, "Gee, his response was quite good too. They both could be right, depending how I look at it." As opposed to: "Wow! Isn't HE an overbearing jerk! And wasn't her response cutting and insulting! I am SO GLAD I am not inside of THAT nuthouse with THOSE superstitious fanatics."
We should all remember that the net overall effect of the Wars of the Reformation in Europe was not a victory for Catholicism OR Protestantism, but was, instead, a general weakening of faith on both sides of the line in favor of secularism. Catholics and Protestants of that era both had their theological points, but they were both dead wrong to allow their disagreements to get so far out of hand that they allowed themselves to, between them, kill some 8 million people in raging Christian-on-Christian violence, violence which persuaded NOBODY of the truth of Jesus Christ, but which persuaded PLENTY of people that they didn't believe any of it anymore.
If we are going to tear at each other, Christian-on-Christian, in public before the non-Christians who would be better served by getting themselves EITHER into a Catholic Mass or a Sunday morning Baptist chapel service, then we let Jesus down and start sounding like the striving apostles, but without their authority.
So let's not do that.
Let's promise, before we go back to discussing the Bible, that we are not going to tear down each other AT ALL for being EVIL or simply stupid, simply because we read text and interpret it differently. Let's not get so carried away - as I did - making an intra-mural Christian point about authority that we appear to be tearing down either the authority of the Bible OR the respectability of the Bible-believing Protestant or Catholic Churches. (I am afraid I cannot go so far as to promise not to pick on those Protestant Churches who have frankly walked out on the Bible and started to bless gay marriages and the like. Like all Catholics, I don't think that the original Lutheran move from the Teaching Authority of the Catholic Church to Sola Scriptura was the best move, but I certainly recognize a strong, intense and real Christian faith in Bible-believing Protestants such as each of you is. What I can't fathom at all, and can't respect, is the second step of modern "mainstream" churches who go from Sola Scriptura to not feeling they have to even follow the Bible. The Catholic Church is bound by the authority of ancient tradition which includes the Bible, and which Catholics feel they have no authority to change. The Sola Scripturalist Bible-believing Protestant, too, has an immutable source of authority: the fixed text of the Bible. Perhaps there is disagreement as to the precise meaning of specific passages, but nobody can honestly read the Bible, either Testament, and pretend that God is in favor of blessing homosexual "marriage". Sola Scriptura, because it does rely on the authentic Bible tradition, the inspired word of God, can't just ignore the Bible and do what it wants. Baptists and Catholics disagree on authority, but they don't disagree on morality.
But the new school of non-Sola Scripturalist Protestant churches simply do whatever they feel. They're not bound by ANY authority other than what their leaders want to do. It comes as no surprise, I would suspect, to either a Sola Scripturalist Protesatnt or a Catholic that "what their leaders want to do" is almost invariably in the direction of sexual license and moral libertinism. For indeed, that is what refusing the authority of sacred tradition, be it Scripture or the ancient canons of the Catholic Church handed down since the First Century MEANS. It means getting away from all of that "Thou shalt not" business and "Just saying yes" to whatever the individual inclinations want. And we all know what our individual inclinations want, left to their own devices. And it ain't good.
But there is no such "mainstreamer" here. You are (or seem to be) ardent Sola Scripturalists. I respect that. I am a Catholic. I think we can talk, and learn from each other, and edify even our critics and enemies who look on - IF we are careful and respectful with each other, and remember that neither of us wants to serve the Devil, but that he wants to pull us all into rage and division with each other so as to cause some of us to fall away, and to discourage anyone looking on from even CONSIDERING the faith we all believe in.
So, why don't we try to have the discussion after all, but with Christian care for each other. I think it would be a good thing for anti-Christian evolutionists to see Christians who disagree capable of carrying on a lengthy, detailed and calm discussion of their theological differences. I think the Christians would come out looking more calm, rational and logical than scientists who lose their head and proclaim jihad against religion.
I am willing to give it a go.
Are you in?
I will start with the first parts of Genesis, in my next post here. Please let me know if you want to have this discussion with me.
Now let us go in peace to love and serve the Lord.
I tip my hat to you! While I disagree with alot of Catholic doctrines, I don't disagree with your premise for more civil discourse.
It takes courage and humility to post what you did, and that reflects well on you and on Christ.
I look forward to discussing issues with you in the future. Hopefully, my responses will be a useful tool for those lurkers who are seeking answers to their questions, and not some notch on my "gotcha" belt.
Sincerely
I'm game. I never was big on name calling or atttacking others for their beliefs. Thank you.
Amen!!
For if Christians cannot find a way to discuss different perspectives carefully, thoughtfully, and generously with each other, what hope is there at all that some suspicious bystander, watching from the outside, will be induced to come inside to ANY of our particular halls of Christian faith?
Indeed!!!
Where is the UNITY that Jesus wished for us all?
What I can't fathom at all, and can't respect, is the second step of modern "mainstream" churches who go from Sola Scriptura to not feeling they have to even follow the Bible.
(We ain't so far apart after all!! ;^)
As for me, I promise to not to enter the debate on the "number of angels dancin' on a pin" thing!
Amen, indeed, Brother!
My problem is that you're acting as if this has to do with Protestant vs. Catholic. Well, I'm sorry to break it to you, but it has to do with you having a cavalier (and unjustified) attitude toward the validity of scripture, and with you advancing beliefs other than Catholic Doctrine. For example, sin came into the world through Eve? Open your catechism and look at 404. Find me a place in the catechism where it talks about Jesus correcting the errors in the Law. Either you are saying Catholic doctrine is something it isn't, or you are saying you're a Catholic who knows better than Catholic doctrine. I'm also still trying to figure out how you know what Jesus said and did if the Bible's so unreliable.
In short, I and these others are standing up for the doctrines all Christians share, and you are treating it as uncivil infighting. Sure, I'm willing to discuss these matters civilly (just as I have been) but I'm not willing to cheer as my fellows have and act as if you've stilled the storm of intermural conflict. Unity is great, but the unity has to be around the teachings of Christ, not around vague good feelings and a wish to bring in non-believers.
Sorry if that stuff leaves a mark, but I wouldn't have felt I was being honest if I didn't say it. Proceed if you still wish to.