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To: Elsie

Elsie, are you a Jew?

No?

The Torah is The Law.
Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy - it's ALL "The Law", according to Jews of every generation, including Jesus', and including Jesus himself.

In the Jewish Bible, The Law (Torah = The Law) is distinguised from books such as Isaiah and Ezekiel, et al, which are not"The Law", but are called "The Prophets".

When Jesus, the Jew, speaks to an audience of Jews and says "The law and the prophets", he is referring to two corpuses of Biblical texts to which Jews gave (and give) great authority. No Jew has ever pretended that every word in the (Hebrew) Bible has the same authority as every other word. What is written in the histories such as Judges or Joshua ias all informative and interesting, but it does not have the same authority at all as that which was handed down by God to the prophets, and is recorded in the prophetic books. And those books pale in authority to The Law, the 5 books (Pentateuch) of the Torah.

You have broken Deuteronomy as "the law" in contradistinction to the rest of The Law (Torah). There is no basis to do this. Jews have never done that. They didn't in Ezra's day. They don't in our day. And Jesus certainly didn't do that. When Jesus said that The Law wasn't to change a jot nor a tittle until all was fulfilled, and then pointed to part of The Law - the Torah - and said it was wrong, a human tradition introduced by Moses as an allowance "for the harndess of your hearts" - but that divorce was not there in the law of God at the beginning - he was doing something very violent and alarming to the Jews' conceptions who were hearing them. He was pointing at the most holy books of Jewish Scripture, The Law of Moses itself, The Torah, and sayingng that there was an error in it, and pointing out the REAL rule from God.

You say, referring to Deuteronomy, "Anything else is not the law". But honestly this is just you speaking out of school. It's not true. The Law IS The Torah. That's what Torah means. No Jew ever thought differently. Then or now.
Jesus meant the Torah, not just Deuteronomy.


188 posted on 01/05/2007 12:55:14 PM PST by Vicomte13 (Aure entuluva.)
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To: Vicomte13
NIV Deuteronomy 5:22
 
These are the commandments the LORD proclaimed in a loud voice to your whole assembly there on the mountain from out of the fire, the cloud and the deep darkness; and he added nothing more. Then he wrote them on two stone tablets and gave them to me.


No Jew ever thought differently. Then or now. Jesus meant the Torah, not just Deuteronomy.


I'm not sure where you get your info, but it just SEEMS to cover all the bases and leave no room for just READING THE TEXT.

What someone CONSIDERS to be true, does not necessarily true. (Or untrue, for that matter.)

What did Jesus 'mean' here:


NIV Matthew 19:17-20
 17.  "Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. "There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments."
 18.  "Which ones?" the man inquired.   Jesus replied, "`Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony,
 19.  honor your father and mother,'  and `love your neighbor as yourself.' "    (6 of them)
 20.  "All these I have kept," the young man said. "What do I still lack?"

And here:


NIV Matthew 22:36-40
 36.  "Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?"
 37.  Jesus replied: "`Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'
 38.  This is the first and greatest commandment.
 39.  And the second is like it: `Love your neighbor as yourself.'
 40.  All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."


NIV Matthew 9:10-11
 10.  While Jesus was having dinner at Matthew's house, many tax collectors and "sinners" came and ate with him and his disciples.
 11.  When the Pharisees saw this, they asked his disciples, "Why does your teacher eat with tax collectors and `sinners'?"

(THIS was TOTALLY against the 'law'.)

and...


NIV Matthew 12:1-8
 1.  At that time Jesus went through the grainfields on the Sabbath. His disciples were hungry and began to pick some heads of grain and eat them.
 2.  When the Pharisees saw this, they said to him, "Look! Your disciples are doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath."
 3.  He answered, "Haven't you read what David did when he and his companions were hungry?
 4.  He entered the house of God, and he and his companions ate the consecrated bread--which was not lawful for them to do, but only for the priests.
 5.  Or haven't you read in the Law that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple desecrate the day and yet are innocent?
 6.  I tell you that one  greater than the temple is here.
 7.  If you had known what these words mean, `I desire mercy, not sacrifice,'  you would not have condemned the innocent.
 8.  For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath."

If the law is the same as The LAW, as you claim, then the above verses are more fuel for your claim that Jesus 'changed' the law.

 

Other NT writers had things to say as well:


NIV Romans 2:17-18
 17.  Now you, if you call yourself a Jew; if you rely on the law and brag about your relationship to God;
 18.  if you know his will and approve of what is superior because you are instructed by the law;
 

NIV Romans 3:19-20
 19.  Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God.
 20.  Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.
 

NIV Romans 4:13
   It was not through law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith.


NIV Hebrews 7:18-19
 18.  The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless
 19.  (for the law made nothing perfect), and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God.
 

NIV Hebrews 9:19-20
 19.  When Moses had proclaimed every commandment of the law to all the people, he took the blood of calves, together with water, scarlet wool and branches of hyssop, and sprinkled the scroll and all the people.
 20.  He said, "This is the blood of the covenant, which God has commanded you to keep."

John 6
 28.  Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?"
 29.  Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."


Oh... it appears some 'Jews' DID 'think differently'


NIV 2 Kings 22:8-12
  8.  Hilkiah the high priest said to Shaphan the secretary, "I have found the Book of the Law in the temple of the LORD." He gave it to Shaphan, who read it.
  9.  Then Shaphan the secretary went to the king and reported to him: "Your officials have paid out the money that was in the temple of the LORD and have entrusted it to the workers and supervisors at the temple."
 10.  Then Shaphan the secretary informed the king, "Hilkiah the priest has given me a book." And Shaphan read from it in the presence of the king.
 11.  When the king heard the words of the Book of the Law, he tore his robes.
 12.  He gave these orders to Hilkiah the priest, Ahikam son of Shaphan, Acbor son of Micaiah, Shaphan the secretary and Asaiah the king's attendant:
 13.  "Go and inquire of the LORD for me and for the people and for all Judah about what is written in this book that has been found. Great is the LORD's anger that burns against us because our fathers have not obeyed the words of this book; they have not acted in accordance with all that is written there concerning us."  

 

More 'differences?  Pharisees - Saducees

206 posted on 01/06/2007 6:19:42 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going....)
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