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To: TommyDale

Let me get this straight. Let's say you're a Christian and believe the bible. Jews are God's chosen people. Jesus, God's only son, was scorned and ultimately railroaded into crucifixtion by "God's chosen people". Then those same people denied the divinity of Jesus and today heap the most scorn on fundamentalist Christians and their "object" of worship. They also make up a large portion of the outspoken atheists- to whom God's existence is a joke. And according to the New Testament, these Chosen People don't make it to Heaven unless they sing a different tune.

You gotta be kidding me. I'm no theologist, but this is a little much for a layman to swallow. I value the Jewish community and Israel but the "chosen people" argument doesn't wash.


30 posted on 01/01/2007 5:15:09 PM PST by jagrmeister
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To: jagrmeister

First, you need to distinguish between secular Jews and Orthodox Jews. Secondly, they will all have their chance at redemption. Meanwhile, I will continue to support Israel.


32 posted on 01/01/2007 5:16:48 PM PST by TommyDale (Iran President Ahmadinejad is shorter than Tom Daschle!)
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To: jagrmeister
I understand your statements. However this is a brief summary which may help.

God chose Abraham to give rise to the nation of Israel. He said, "I will bless them that bless you, and I will curse them that curse you."

Jesus came to the Jew first. The rest of us were grafted into the true vine.

In Romans, Paul rhetorically asked, then immediately answered his own question. "Hath God forgotten his people? God forbid, for I too am an Israelite (Jew). But they are blinded in part for a season until the time of the Gentile be fulfilled.

Salvation is first to the Jew, then the Greek (Gentile)

As far as the Jews scorning and ultimately crucifying Jesus, I believe Jesus would say that He gladly laid down His life to make recompense for my sins, the Jews sins, your sins. It was me, my offense of infinite justice which nailed Jesus to the Cross. To all who would come to Him.

For dispensationalists, we now are in the dispensation of Grace (unearned, unmerited favor with God, not because of anything we did or who we are, but because of Jesus and what He did at the Cross. He went to the Cross in spite of my sinful ugliness...Because of who He is and in spite of who I am.

There seems mystery in this, but I think it is the crux of Gods plan.

57 posted on 01/01/2007 6:12:41 PM PST by Texas Songwriter
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To: jagrmeister
God made a covenant with Israel. Lets call it the ultimate promise. Much like a marriage, but God made all the rules and the entire agreement. Gods view is that no matter what Israel does they are still his people, and that HE made a covenant with them. Today, we view covenants or promises or contracts things that can be broken, altered, or ignored as we see fit, whether the other has wronged us, or no longer is convenient for us.

But this is not Gods way. He made the covenant, and he will stick with it.

But it doesn't mean he doesn't discipline his people. Discipline is not the same as rejection.

As far as your point about the Jews railroading and crucifiing Jesus. They did nothing he didn't allow. Read the new testament and you'll see that he new all along his future. He new what their plans were for him before Judas left to betray him, and yet he told Judas to be quick about it. Instead of trying to flee, he goes to the garden and prays. Instead of running from the Jews, from what he knew was facing him, he prays. Prays so intently and so distraught he sweated dropds of blood.

He could have called a legion of angels to whisk him away (if he actually needed that) and they could have destroyed everyone.

But he didn't.

We consider the police and fire fighters who went into the WTC as heroes, because they knew what possibly awaited them, and yet they went anyway.

Is Jesus any less a hero for doing what he did, knowing what was ahead of him?

So was he murdered, or did he sacrifice himself?

The ancient Israelites and todays Jews are Gods chosen people. Not chosen for a free pass to heaven, but chosen to reveal God. Heaven or access to God is limited to faith. And faith alone. No matter your heritage. No matter your religion. No matter how many people pray for you. Heaven is only by faith in Jehovah God and his son, and what he did.

For a Christian to deny Israel's (Jews) position, means they are denying God's covenant with the Jews, and devalues God's covenant. Something God himself can't do.

That has an impact on Christians. Because if you have no consideration for Gods covenant with Israel (Jews), how can you have proper consideration for Gods covenant with Christians?

60 posted on 01/01/2007 6:20:29 PM PST by mountn man (The pleasure you get from life, is equal to the attitude you put into it.)
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To: jagrmeister

It's not that complicated ... check out the reasoning of Paul (who suffered mightily at the hands of those Jews who opposed the message about Jesus) in the book of Romans - especially chapters 9, 10 and 11. Paul's point: even though they act as enemies of the gospel (individually) yet God's promises to Abraham et al. stand, being (by nature of a promise) irrevocable:

11:28 In regard to the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but in regard to election they are dearly loved for the sake of the fathers. 11:29 For the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable.


76 posted on 01/01/2007 7:19:52 PM PST by Tirian
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To: jagrmeister

" I'm no theologist, "
Is that some kind of politician?
You also are no theologian. Try reading the Bible before you deny the existence of God's Chosen People.


104 posted on 01/01/2007 10:16:37 PM PST by Louis Foxwell (Here come I, gravitas in tow.)
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To: jagrmeister
G-d chose the Jews to be a beacon of light unto the nations of the world.

Who are you to criticize G-d?

As for the New Testament, Jesus didn't practices Christianity, now did he? Why would anyone want to simply worship the man instead of emulating his deeds?

Sure, he said that you don't have to... Yet, I don't have to help the unfortunate either. But I don't think anyone would then say that those that help and those that don't are morally equal, either.

One set of actions are simply more moral than the other.
108 posted on 01/01/2007 10:35:20 PM PST by gogogodzilla (Republicans only win if they are conservative.)
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To: jagrmeister

Jesus was railroaded into crucifixion my by sin and His desire to provide salvation for me.
No race is responsible for this except the human race as a whole

the early disciples and apostles were all Jewish and continued to call themselves Jews while spreading the Gospel

there are good a bad apples in every race, but every Christian understands they are personally responsible for and saved by Christ's crucifixion.


246 posted on 01/03/2007 4:44:47 PM PST by Mom MD (The scorn of fools is music to the ears of the wise)
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