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To: Amos the Prophet
When someone can explain why:

a) the Pharisees who condemned Jesus to death were "God's chosen people" (Jesus said they were NOT children of Abraham but rather children of the devil)

b) Paul was wrong when he said that it is those who are children of faith who are children of Abraham, and thus the true recipients of the covenant promises

c) the writer of Hebrews was wrong when he said that WE (the NT church) are the nation of priests, etc (all covenant OT language)

d) how the Holy Spirit got confused and could not even remember the names of the 12 tribes when they are "Prophesied" to re-take the land in Revelation 7 (hint: there is no "tribe of Benjamin")

I actually have a notebook full of places where the New Testament clearly and unequivocally says that the blessings on "Israel" are and always have been to the "true Israel" or those of faith, including the current Gentile Church.

To argue that those blessings belong to an atheistic hegemonistic, secular state which will expel those who preach the good news of the Messiah, is only further testimony that modern American Christians don't know 1)the bible and 2)the history of theology of end times

150 posted on 01/02/2007 8:46:03 AM PST by DreamsofPolycarp
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To: DreamsofPolycarp
Follow up: There is NO evidence in the Bible ANYWHERE (Including I Thess 4) of a "secret" coming of Jesus. None.

Further, there is no mention of it in Church History before 1860 or so, with the Irvingite sect.

151 posted on 01/02/2007 8:48:17 AM PST by DreamsofPolycarp
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To: DreamsofPolycarp
I actually have a notebook full of places where the New Testament clearly and unequivocally says that the blessings on "Israel" are and always have been to the "true Israel" or those of faith, including the current Gentile Church.

And I actually have 39 books of the Old Testament that clearly and specifically state that the promises to physical Israel still stand (Jeremiah 33 is a good chapter to start with). You're taking it much too far to one extreme. Romans 11 - we are grafted into THEIR tree - don't boast against the branches. They are currently blind for OUR sake. One day their eyes will be opened.

To argue that those blessings belong to an atheistic hegemonistic, secular state which will expel those who preach the good news of the Messiah, is only further testimony that modern American Christians don't know 1)the bible and 2)the history of theology of end times

Again, don't boast against the branches - how long ago were you and I in such an ungodly state but by His grace were saved?

And I would argue that you might not know your Old Testament and how it relates to the New Covenant. That secular state is in place because God promised that it would be, and the Jews are currently being regathered in unbelief, as prophesied in various places - Ez 37 comes to mind. God promised to "save the tents of Judah first" - Zech 12 - happening now. God will bring them through the fire and then pour out His Spirit upon them - again, Zechariah. Just a couple of references among dozens upon dozens.

The whole story is one seamless flowing tale of undeserved love and redemption. The nation of Israel was chosen of God to be His catalyst through whom One would bring salvation to all. It starts with them and ends with them. One chosen people, to whom WE are added. Don't misunderstand me - they need Messiah too. But God's not done with them, not by far.

163 posted on 01/02/2007 10:14:10 AM PST by agrace (http://www.homeschoolblogger.com/agrace/)
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To: DreamsofPolycarp
a) the Pharisees who condemned Jesus to death were "God's chosen people" (Jesus said they were NOT children of Abraham but rather children of the devil)

Here are some verses from Matthew 16.

22Peter took Him aside and began to rebuke Him, saying, "God forbid it, Lord! This shall never happen to You."

23But He turned and said to Peter, "Get behind Me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to Me; for you are not setting your mind on God's interests, but man's."

But just a few veres before:

18"I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it.

Did God build his house upon Satan???

169 posted on 01/02/2007 10:45:51 AM PST by mountn man (The pleasure you get from life, is equal to the attitude you put into it.)
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To: DreamsofPolycarp
Your prose is confusing. It seems that you are making some false assumptions about the Covenant relationship with the chosen people. Being a member of the Chosen People does not guarantee the salvation of every Jew. Much of Old Testament Judaism is not concerned with salvation.
The nature of the Chosen People is not that they are elevated but that they are singled out as the bearers of a burden to be the witnesses of YWH. They do this sometimes well, sometimes miserably. Individual members of the people chosen by God may be ax murders or saints.
It sometimes seems to me that God deliberately chose the least meritorious of the earth's people to be His Chosen. He did not choose them because they were worthy. He chose them because they required His presence to survive. He chose them to show Himself to the rest of mankind.
Through Christ we are grafted into the Chosen People and carry the same burden, to be witnesses to the work and word of the One True God.
I brought Calvin into this discussion earlier because more than any other Christian theologian he understood that Christians are not self selected. There can be no pride or arrogance in salvation. It is at all times and under all circumstances undeserved. To assume that acceptance of Christ puts one on a higher road than stiff necked Jews who do not accept Jesus as Savior, mocks God.
It is sophistry to claim that one is of the Chosen People solely by virtue of following Christ. God never said this. Jesus never made this claim. When He spoke it was as a Jew, as a member of the Chosen People. Through Him we are permitted to have fellowship with the Chosen People.
196 posted on 01/02/2007 3:57:33 PM PST by Louis Foxwell (Here come I, gravitas in tow.)
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To: DreamsofPolycarp
a) the Pharisees who condemned Jesus to death were "God's chosen people" (Jesus said they were NOT children of Abraham but rather children of the devil)
Jesus was condemning a bunch of Roman-picked collaborators. From 40 BCE onwards the Romans picked the High Priest. From Herod the Greats slaughter the opposition in the Sanhedrin, all members new that they were not free on any religiou matters. The Romans had many self-proclaimed Messiahs killed.

I'm not touching the others since these are pure Christian theology.

217 posted on 01/02/2007 11:20:29 PM PST by rmlew (Having slit their throats may the conservatives who voted for Casey choke slowly on their blood.)
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