Why do evangelicals support Israel so strongly?

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/rosnerGuest.jhtml?itemNo=807769 ^

[yochanan]

Why do evangelicals support Israel so strongly? Is the American Jews' fear of fundamentalist Christianity based on constitutional principle, or social and cultural snobbery and political partisanship?

A Match Made in Heaven is a funny, readable, book. It is the most entertaining way to struggle with questions such as "Why do evangelicals support Israel so strongly? Is their philo-Semitism just a front for their true purpose to convert Jews? Do the evangelicals, as their opponents charge, really want to use the Jews as cannon fodder at the battle of Armageddon? Or are they simply responding to the biblical commandment to love Israel? Finally, is the American Jews' fear of fundamentalist Christianity based on constitutional principle, or social and cultural snobbery and political partisanship?"

We will discuss these questions this week, and readers, as usual, can send their questions to rosnersdomain@haaretz.co.il.

How do America's Orthodox Jews relate to Zionist Evangelicals?

Joe Feld

Paradoxically, Orthodox Jews have the fewest problems with a Jewish-Evangelical relationship.

For one thing, a lot of Orthodox Jews and Evangelicals share conservative social and political positions. Orthodox Jews, for example, are rarely troubled by church-state separation issues. They send their own kids to parochial schools; they're glad to get government money via faith based programs; many are opposed to abortion, and they tend not to be too concerned about the good opinion of the "international community" - ie, Europeans.

Most Orthodox Jews also have a stronger connection to, and concern about, Israel than the secular or liberal majority. Orthodox Jews are more likely to care about a candidates' position on Israel. As a Democratic activist told me, if Cynthia McKinney ran for President as a Democrat, she'd get fifty percent of the Jewish vote.

Some Orthodox Jews are opposed to any

[mountn man]

Keep it up. Maybe if enough people speak up we can stop all this "rapture" junk that is being spewed by the false prophets. Christians need to read God's Word, not the Left Behind books, not listen to false preachers but only to God. They should read Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21 where Jesus Himself teaches us what to expect in end times and it's not to catch the next flight out.

I think its important to keep in mind that there are many preachers who preach proper Christ alone salvation. Who lead many into saving grace. But for all those many there are differing opinions on many issues, whether they be the rapture, or speaking in tongues, the roles of women in the church and/or home or many others.

Are these other subjects important? Most definetly. But none of these others deal with salvation, so they are secondary.

I think to label someone a false prophet because of one of these differences might be rather harsh.

Granted we all need to know our Bible. And we need to correct those that are wrong. But if you did a Google search of Billy Graham, the Pope, D. James Kennedy, Bill Hybels, Charles Stanley, Rick Warren, Pat Robertson, Chuck Colson, Oral Roberts, Jerry Falwell, Robert Schuller you would find somebody somewhere denouncing one of them, and calling them false prophets.

I'm not saying I follow what all these men teach, or that they are all equal. My point is, that someone like Billy Graham, who many consider one of the greatest evangelists ever, is by some called a false prophet.

I think we need to be cautious in our labeling of people. But at the same time vigilant in our defense of the Word. Many preachers who you or I might deem false prophets have led many into salvation. Likewise, many who we view as great leaders will be either missing in heaven, or not wearing the crowns we thought they'd have.

Whether the escatology of the Left Behind series is correct, the books have been used to lead many to Christ, or to cause many to study end time prophecies for themselves. Neither Jerry Jenkins or Tim Lahaye preach a salvation other than Christ and Christ alone.

I left a mega church because of some differences in theology. Did I learn in the 15 years I was there? I would say alot. Do they win souls for Christ? Most definetly. Are their teachings on the issues I think are wrong going to send people to hell (if I am right, and they are wrong)? Probably not. But I left quietly, not trying to stir up dissension, because that is what we are called to do.

The last thing non Christians need, is to see Christians lambasting other Christians over non salvation issues.

[DreamsofPolycarp]

This thread is a classic example of the divisions in doctrine that plague the Church today. Christ warned us....and now we see this being played out right before our eyes. Indeed these are the last days.

I have to disagree. Doctrines that plague the church are those which deny the nature of Christ or deny the nature of His work, or deny the role of faith and repentance in our salvation.

This stuff on "Israel" and whether that word has any connection to some Shemites living in and around the land of the Mosaic covenant is just a family dispute. As in any family, some of us have difficulties expressing ourselves without hostility, and the internet permits/goads this.

For me, I tend to support Israel because I think they are relatively more righteous than the bunch of howling bloodthirsty loons that surround them. But the support ends there. They have NO biblical claim to the covenant promises of God in the Old Testament, as they are cut off from those promises due to their unbelief in the Messiah. The weird weird world of dispensational theology makes a discussion on the issue difficult, as most people have no idea that the views they hold as "biblical" re: Israel/Palestine were completely unheard of before about 140 years ago.

[agrace]

I actually have a notebook full of places where the New Testament clearly and unequivocally says that the blessings on "Israel" are and always have been to the "true Israel" or those of faith, including the current Gentile Church.

And I actually have 39 books of the Old Testament that clearly and specifically state that the promises to physical Israel still stand (Jeremiah 33 is a good chapter to start with). You're taking it much too far to one extreme. Romans 11 - we are grafted into THEIR tree - don't boast against the branches. They are currently blind for OUR sake. One day their eyes will be opened.

To argue that those blessings belong to an atheistic hegemonistic, secular state which will expel those who preach the good news of the Messiah, is only further testimony that modern American Christians don't know 1)the bible and 2)the history of theology of end times

Again, don't boast against the branches - how long ago were you and I in such an ungodly state but by His grace were saved?

And I would argue that you might not know your Old Testament and how it relates to the New Covenant. That secular state is in place because God promised that it would be, and the Jews are currently being regathered in unbelief, as prophesied in various places - Ez 37 comes to mind. God promised to "save the tents of Judah first" - Zech 12 - happening now. God will bring them through the fire and then pour out His Spirit upon them - again, Zechariah. Just a couple of references among dozens upon dozens.

The whole story is one seamless flowing tale of undeserved love and redemption. The nation of Israel was chosen of God to be His catalyst through whom One would bring salvation to all. It starts with them and ends with them. One chosen people, to whom WE are added. Don't misunderstand me - they need Messiah too. But God's not done with them, not by far.

[Ping-Pong]

Rapture is thought of as a way of escape from the tribulation for those that love God. In the chapter you quoted, Matthew, (vs. 13) it states "But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved". Satan/anti-christ comes first, pretending to be Christ and many will follow him, believing him to be Jesus. We must go through Satan's tribulation (vs.29)before the true Christ comes. (That is a tribulation of lies and they are aimed at God's children, Christians, as he already has the others). At the 7th trump, (vs.31), those that didn't follow the fake are gathered but they don't go anywhere. He comes here. Go to (vs.34), "This generation" He refers to is thought by most Christians as our generation, that began in 1948 when Israel became a nation. If that is true there isn't enough time left to be listening to false doctrine, doctrine that tells them they'll be gone. That isn't getting them ready for what must be faced.

[agrace]

Correction - my mention of Jer 33 should actually be Jer 31...although chapter 33 is pretty specific as well. :)

[Ping-Pong]

Thank you for your reply. Some of what you posted I have known of but it was interesting to read the rest. I regret that some have used being of the House of Israel as a racist issue but those people would use anything for that purpose. I still think it's true as it makes complete sense. Where are those lost 10 tribes, why would they not be the Anglo-Saxon, Celtic, Scandinavian, etc. tribes? Why is this country so blessed? Why are we "One Nation Under God"? He said He would scatter us, He did. Also, I don't see why a belief in that would be considered being in a cult or a religion. I don't belong to either.

[mountn man]

The Jews lost their exclusive claim to the Covenant when they rejected Christ.

Here is Gods covenant with Abraham:

1Now the LORD said to Abram, "Go forth from your country, And from your relatives And from your father's house, To the land which I will show you;

2And I will make you a great nation, And I will bless you, And make your name great; And so you shall be a blessing;

3And I will bless those who bless you, And the one who curses you I will curse And in you all the families of the earth will be blessed."

There was only one thing Abraham (Abram at the time) had to do, leave his home, and go somewhere where God showed him.

Abraham did not choose this for himself. God chose Abraham for this. He initiated the covenant and made the rules.

Where here does Gods covenant have any stipulations?

Where in the Bible does God EVER change the conditions of his covenant.

I don't care what this author, or that preacher, or whatever denominations' stand is.

What does the BIBLE say.

Anything other than what the BIBLE says is HERESY. No matter who says otherwise.

[mountn man]

Excellent response.

[mountn man]

a) the Pharisees who condemned Jesus to death were "God's chosen people" (Jesus said they were NOT children of Abraham but rather children of the devil)

Here are some verses from Matthew 16.

22Peter took Him aside and began to rebuke Him, saying, "God forbid it, Lord! This shall never happen to You."

23But He turned and said to Peter, "Get behind Me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to Me; for you are not setting your mind on God's interests, but man's."

But just a few veres before:

18"I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it.

Did God build his house upon Satan???

[Ping-Pong]

I don't see where we disagree. God scattered them and they settled across Europe, eventually migrating to England then America. The Jews, the tribe of Judah, are in the same family as the "10 lost tribes", The House of Israel. How would an anthropoligist be able to tell any difference? The House of Israel was taken into captivity 200 years before the House of Judah fell to the Babylonians so they probably picked up many different traits but they're still the same family.

[mountn man]

He refers to is thought by most Christians as our generation, that began in 1948 when Israel became a nation.

I agree. Its now 2007. 59 years. If the "average" lifespan today is 75 years, we are only 16 years away. If we use a longer lifespan of 90 or 95 years, we are only 21-26 years away.

I'm not trying to put a date on it, I'm saying we have short time to get to work.

[Dave S]

This thread is a classic example of the divisions in doctrine that plague the Church today. Christ warned us....and now we see this being played out right before our eyes.

If you think these divisions are so big, you should have been around for the first 300 years of Christianity before the Roman Empire coopted Christianity and determined which beliefs could exist and which were worthy of the death penalty.

[Ping-Pong]

Here's one we completely agree on. It is Satanic and will lead many wonderful people away from God. They sit in church and listen to the rapture theory and are never taught what will really happen. The Bible is not being taught nor are they being prepared for what will happen. Jesus warned "take heed that no man deceive you" and they're going like lambs to the slaughter.

[Halgr]

How can reading the Bible today....and coming to the conclusions we do have anything to do with 140 years ago....

The bible hasn't changed....????

[Dave S]

He said he would make them a great nation. Where does he say it would allow them to remain a great nation in perpetuity? If he did, then he failed in that Israel ceased to exist for several millenia. Wasnt the great blessing referred to that Christ would come out of lineage of Abraham.

[Ping-Pong]

Not nice. Why did the information about the 10 tribes upset you. You don't have to believe it but I do and I won't call you any names.

[Texas Songwriter]

Never does Christ talk about removing his believers during this time. Its not until afterwards

Please look carefully what Jesus said to the apostles who asked 3 questions (This was after Jesus had spoken at the temple and prophesied the ruination of the temple._The 3 questions are..(1)Tell us when shad these things be? (2)What shall be the signs of thy coming? (3)When shall be the end of the world?

Then Jesus answered, "Take heed that no man deceive you." I believe this is one of the most important admonitions. Deception is rampant even today. Then he said there would be wars,rumors of wars, etc. Then he said, "All of these are the beginning of sorrows. I believe we live in that age when Jesus described as the "Beginning of Sorrows". This is not the Tribulation Period.

Verse 14 has specific references to the proclamation of the good news that the kingdom is again "at hand" by the Jewish remnant Verse 15 gives the sign of the abomination of desolation. This introduces the great Tribulation, which runs a little less than 7 years. The first 1/2 of the Tribulation is a time of false peace, learning of an adoring leader who then proclaims himself to be God.

In reading your post I believe you think the 2nd coming of Jesus is the same as the time Jesus decends from heaven with a shout, the trump of God, then the dead in Christ....These are different events. The calling forth of the Church (Resurrection) where Jesus decends from Heaven with a shout is not that spoken of by Zechariah 14, which is a summary of the glorious events of the return of the Lord. He will set his foot on the Mt. of Olives. In Zechariah 13:6-7 they will look upon him and say, "Where did you get those scars in your hands and feet?" And Jesus says, "In the house of my Friends."

I hope this helps.

[Ping-Pong]

I think about it all the time. Many of my family and friends are "rapture" believers and love the "Left Behind" books. It's like a security blanket for them and they Do Not want to hear anything else. So, I'm getting to work too.

[mountn man]

Then he said, "All of these are the beginning of sorrows. I believe we live in that age when Jesus described as the "Beginning of Sorrows". This is not the Tribulation Period.

I absolutely agree, this is the preparation for the Great Tribulation.

Verse 14 has specific references to the proclamation of the good news that the kingdom is again "at hand" by the Jewish remnant Verse 15 gives the sign of the abomination of desolation. This introduces the great Tribulation, which runs a little less than 7 years. The first 1/2 of the Tribulation is a time of false peace, learning of an adoring leader who then proclaims himself to be God.

I've always understood the Abomination of Desolation to be at the mid point of the Great Tribulation. When the antichrist no longer holds onto the facade of great peacemaker, but instead lets his real self show. But alot of this is by things taught by the pre trib rapture group. Not by personal conviction by my own study.

In reading your post I believe you think the 2nd coming of Jesus is the same as the time Jesus decends from heaven with a shout, the trump of God, then the dead in Christ....These are different events. The calling forth of the Church (Resurrection) where Jesus decends from Heaven with a shout is not that spoken of by Zechariah 14.

My point was, that never was a "rapture" mentioned. Christs warns of the pre trib time, then the trib time, and then he comes. Never anything even alluding to a rapture.

[Ping-Pong]

You are right. I was way too harsh and will be more careful in the future. Theological differences don't bother me but I see rapture as bringing on the Great Apostacy. Something has to be the cause of Christian's that have loved Christ all their lives suddenly changing. I think that something is rapture. They'll believe they are following Christ, who's coming to rapture them away, when it's the anti-christ. God warns us and someone's not reading that warning, and preachers aren't preaching that warning when they tell us we'll fly away. (Ez.13:20).I'll stop being so salty but I truly believe it is a strong "salvation" issue. You can be saved but if you follow anti-christ, even unknowingly, then to whom are you saved? Christ won't leave us but we can leave Him.