Posted on 01/01/2007 10:44:24 AM PST by Uncledave
An oil and security task force of the Council on Foreign Relations recently opined that "the voices that espouse 'energy independence' are doing the nation a disservice by focusing on a goal that is unachievable over the foreseeable future." Others have also said, essentially, that other nations will control our transportation fuel--get used to it. Yet House Democrats have announced a push for "energy independence in 10 years," and in November General Motors joined Toyota and perhaps other auto makers in a race to produce plug-in hybrid vehicles, hugely reducing the demand for oil. Who's right--those who drive toward independence or those who shrug?
Bet on major progress toward independence, spurred by market forces and a portfolio of rapidly developing oil-replacing technologies.
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All this is likely to change decisively, because electricity is about to become a major partner with alternative liquid fuels in replacing oil.
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Utilities are rapidly becoming quite interested in plug-ins because of the substantial benefit to them of being able to sell off-peak power at night. Because off-peak nighttime charging uses unutilized capacity, DOE's Pacific Northwest National Laboratory estimates that adopting plug-ins will not create a need for new base load electricity generation plants until plug-ins constitute over 84% of the country's 220 million passenger vehicles.
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Once plug-ins start appearing in showrooms it is not only consumers and utility shareholders who will be smiling. If cheap off-peak electricity supplies a portion of our transportation needs, this will help insulate alternative liquid fuels from OPEC market manipulation designed to cripple oil's competitors.
(Excerpt) Read more at opinionjournal.com ...
But the method by which chemical energy becomes mechanical energy is very important.
Gasoline powered IC engines have poor efficiencies of around 25%, even though they convert chemical energy directly to mechanical energy.
But a coal burning plant might have an efficiency of between 36% and 48%. Even assuming 10% line loss means you get 33% to 43% efficiency at the electrical socket. Another 10% loss in the car's electric motors and you still are ahead on efficiency. And all the while burning a cheaper fuel.
And some power plants with gas fired turbines reach up to 60% efficiency!
I guess the author didn't do his homework - ethanol has about half the mileage of gasoline.
Guilty as charged. I'm not the scientist, SirKit is, and he's just as excited about building an electric car as I am about owning one. He's also interested in creating a new and improved solar collection system to provide the juice.
With all the brainpower floating around in the world, I just don't see why something cannot be worked out. We're not talking rocket science here; no 4th dimension or space travel, just working the problem here on earth.
"Nationwide, on-average, the wind is steadier at night"
Just about the most misleading statement I've seen regarding alterantive energy. It's steadier because it is mostly died away.
When I was in the 6th or 7th grade, in the mid sixties, the parents of one of my close friends had a car with push button transmission. We thought it was the coolest thing!!
If private companies were pursuing this for money I would say fine, but the government is sponsoring this with my money and I call BS. Same as embryonic stem cell research, I don't want it and don't want to pay for it.
The Democrats are late to this issue . The Republicans solved this years ago when Nixon was President.
Nixon- "As we move toward the celebration 2 years from now of the 200th anniversary of this Nation's independence, let us press vigorously on toward the goal I announced last November for Project Independence. Let this be our national goal: At the end of this decade, in the year 1980, the United States will not be dependent on any other country for the energy we need to provide our jobs, to heat our homes, and to keep our transportation moving." - tom
--Silly me. You can recharge it in 2 days then, or 12 hours with 480v 100A industrial service.--
I am glad you are not an electrical engineer ...
>.....or, you can pump 15 gallons of gas in 5 minutes.
At potentially 4x the cost of electric energy, and help finance terrorists...
"As I said before, no one will know what can or cannot be done with regards to hybrid cars, solar power, or anything else for that matter, unless it is researched and studied."
My dear Q: The thread is about electric cars. Electric cars are not viable, at least under the definition of "car" as we know it. Hybrids are somewhat viable, with copious levels of government assistance.
It is quite easy to know what can or cannot be done with electric cars, hybrid cars, and solar power given the present body of knowledge in engineering and physics. I have had the privilege of studying that for some time, so I do feel somewhat qualified to at least comment without being considered an irritable inglubian! (by the way I tried looking that word up to no avail....then I googled it and a previous usage of it by you on FR is all that came up!!)
If I am wrong about electric cars, then pull your head out of the aforementioned mason jar and argue the facts.....don't simply say "well we have to try" unless you have some reasonable basis to expect a positive result.
Science will overcome superstition, but sometimes it takes time.
"I am glad you are not an electrical engineer ..."
Oh, but I am! two degrees and 4 state boards of engineering say I am!
Indeed, I am not infallible, but I don't believe I have been unreasonably tough on electric cars. perhaps you disagree?
"At potentially 4x the cost of electric energy, and help finance terrorists..."
LOL....so that's it? You have unusually low rates "off peak" (no doubt regulated to be so).....but even so, you still can't make up the cost differential over a conventional vehicle.
So, be "green", or be a terrorist supporter? Is that how it goes?
--Oh, but I am! two degrees and 4 state boards of engineering say I am!--
Then how did you miss the difference in efficiencies between the gasoline engine and the electrical motor and the fact that a 480 volt line would be 3-phase?
Huh?
"Then how did you miss the difference in efficiencies between the gasoline engine and the electrical motor and the fact that a 480 volt line would be 3-phase?"
The efficiencies stated by one poster are horribly mis-stated and incorrect. I simply didn't want to argue about that. He's just wrong, but I don't care.
And no, I also didn't wish to bring up the finer points of 3-phase power, delta or wye connections - it would spoil the tongue-in-cheek intent of my post. square roots of 3 do that to jokes, y'know.
To get 'off peak rates' you have to make arrangements with the power company. They all have it available.
"To get 'off peak rates' you have to make arrangements with the power company. They all have it available."
...if you are an industrial-class user. Which everyone would become if we actually charged our cars at night, which we will never do.
--The efficiencies stated by one poster are horribly mis-stated and incorrect. I simply didn't want to argue about that. He's just wrong, but I don't care.
And no, I also didn't wish to bring up the finer points of 3-phase power, delta or wye connections - it would spoil the tongue-in-cheek intent of my post.--
One must at least try to be accurate or one loses credibility.
Ya seen or heard about those hand cranked emergency radios? Maybe they can cook something up like that, ya can have granny or passengers crank while gramps drives:-)
You're getting close. How about hooking up exercise machines to charge?
Homeowners in my area with electric water heaters can get off peak rates. No conditions on amount of electric usage.
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