[nmh]

"Are you seriously asserting that God is NOT sovereign?"

Where on earth did THAT come from?

I quote from the New and Old Testament and YOU come up with THAT?

THAT was my point.

I repeat:

Are you suggesting that false teachings turn people on to TRUTH? I don't believe that for a second.

Deut.4:29

[29] But if from thence thou shalt seek the LORD thy God, thou shalt find him, if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul.

Prov.8:17

[17] I love them that love me; and those that seek me early shall find me.

Jer.29:13

[13] And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.

Matt.7:7-8

[7] Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:

[8] For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

No. there is too much evidence in both the Old and New Testament that those who SEEK Him, sincerely will find Him. You will NOT find Him listening to false teachings - sheer impossible. God sees into your heart; not RW. God will see the sincerity and not refuse you. RW offers nothing - it is the sincerity of the heart seeking Him not RW's Scripture twisting that saves people.

A sub point is that FALSE TEACHERS like Rick Warren are not leading folks to TRUTH. The sincerity of the seeker - GOD responds to THAT. Rick Warren's teachings won't get you there. God will NEVER refuse those that SEEK HIM even if a false teacher has piqued your curiosity - He will make sure you have TRUTH is you sincerely seek HIM.

[Calvinist_Dark_Lord]

No. there is too much evidence in both the Old and New Testament that those who SEEK Him, sincerely will find Him.

Yes, and there is plenty of New Testament evidence that those who DID NOT seek Him found Him anyway. Still no contradiction.

You will NOT find Him listening to false teachings - sheer impossible. God sees into your heart; not RW. God will see the sincerity and not refuse you. RW offers nothing - it is the sincerity of the heart seeking Him not RW's Scripture twisting that saves people.

Unfortunately, the testimony of the Scripture, church, and individuals contradicts this assertion.

Here's a flash for you: EVERYONE has listened to and beleives false teaching, including both you and i. Perhaps they are different false teachings, perhaps they are considered to be minor false teaching, but they are false teachings none the less.

Rick Warren is a teacher of false doctrine, and heretical. Warren does NOT however, teach COMPLETELY false doctrine, as can be evidenced by the confession of faith that Saddleback posts on their website. This is what makes Warren particularly harmful, the mixture of truth with error.

My original contention was that God uses any means He so chooses to use to bring His elect to Him. God has OFTEN used the preaching of false doctrine to get His elect to discover the truth (upon investigation of false preaching), and that the preaching mentioned WAS false doctrine.

An off the top of my head example would be William Murray, son of Madalyn Murray O'hare, former convinced Atheist (error/false doctrine) and now Minister of the Gospel in Texas. The testimony of the Apostle Paul is another example.

Don't confuse means with result. This is, what i beleive you are doing. Yes, the Holy Spirit leads us into all truth, but that's no gaurantee that we don't get lead through error in order to arrive at truth.

i think that we are approaching the same point from two different directions.