Ore. searchers thwarted again by weather ( Day 11 : Mt Hood )

, Associated Press ^ | Dec 17 | JOSEPH B. FRAZIER

[Abigail Adams]

Thanks for the ping! Hoping there is good news today.

[surfer]

From what I understand these were very experienced climbers and the military spokesperson said in a presser the other day that the climbers were very well prepared and had all the correct equipment.

Remember the weather has been the problem here...not what the climbers have or have not. This is only the second day they are actually able to mount some type of search.

Looks like they have spotted equipment and/or anomalies in the snow that are now focusing their efforts to one specific area.

Hopefully they are found alive.

[surfer]

Cellphones typically have trouble functioning properly above 10,000 feet. Tower antenna are not placed in a way for good support of that...they positioned for lower elevation support. If the cellphone has a direct line of sight to a tower that can improve the odds of getting reception. Personally I find it amazing that he was able to make a call at all there.

[george76]

There are some amazing pictures.

[_Jim]

Remember the weather has been the problem here...not what the climbers have or have not.

Yes; this explains the dearth of info/contact with the climbers. /sarc

(Your post sounded more like a 'govermnent dispatch' too BTW; I think we know all that already.)

THIS kind of communcations "black hole" should NOT be happening in the 2006 where someone can buy a GPS-equipped FRS radio that will show you THE POSITION of another party on an LCD display and doesn't require 30 thousand dollar cell sites that may not give coverage in some out-of-the-way canyon that the climbers may be trapped in ...

[surfer]

I certainly agree people should prepare themselves if the proper equipment for the scenarios they are putting themselves in.

We will have to see when this all over whether they had that gear or not...all I can post is what I read or hear.

Even if they knew where they were today looks like the first day that they would be able to get to them...

I think I will pick up one of those radios just the same could be handy someday.

[_Jim]

Cellphones typically have trouble functioning properly above 10,000 feet. Tower antenna are not placed in a way for good support of that.

I'm really looking for a reply by somebody who can address specific "technical paticulars"; not really looking for a 'See Dick and Jane' or 101 level response. See, not all of us are just 'users' of this consumer-stuff; some of us have actually done system plannaing, run the propagation simulation and proceeded then to build-out those systemes ...

[Domandred]

Three words: Personal Locator Beacon. Less then $500 and WILL save your life.

[george76]

[sissyjane]

Would you ping me to news please? Check out this forum for news.


http://www.cascadeclimbers.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/618915/page/0/fpart/21

[surfer]

Jim,

With all due respect I have built out systems for the wireless space since the early 90's. I know many of the particulars but this is hardly the place for that level of discussion...I might recommend starting a thread on the topic.

This thread is about the rescue effort on Mount Hood not the particulars of infrastructure, technologies, etc. If you have a particular question freepmail me and I would be glad to try to answer it for you.

[VOA]

"Three words: Personal Locator Beacon. Less then $500 and WILL save your life."

Thanks. Given the loss of the CNET guy, I've been scouring the internet for
the best/simplest solution to the "I'm lost, Here I am!, come get me!"
conundrum of being lost in the wilderness.

I'm no survival expert, but having a PLB (personal locator beacon) seems
to be a big part of the solution.

http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/templates/links/link.jsp?id=0029764516802a&type=product&cmCat=search&returnPage=search-results1.jsp&QueryText=locator+beacon&N=4887&Ntk=Products&Ntx=mode+matchall&Nty=1&Ntt=locator+beacon&noImage=0

[surfer]

There is a lot of good information and perspectives in that forum.

I would also suggest the following:

www.katu.com
www.kgw.com
http://thehendricksreport.wordpress.com

All have good information. Katu is probably going to be first with breaking news...

[george76]

Thanks for the link.

Here are some good points ( IMHO ) :

" it's imperative that the top of the entrance be lower than the sleeping platform.

That accomplished, it's up to your body heat to warm the place up. The larger the volume, the more energy your body will use heating the place, so unless you're quite comfortable and well supplied, try to find another way to alleviate your boredom. Apart from enlarging your cave, that is. And of course, you don't want to get your clothes any wetter than you have to.

Finally, because your world is built out of water doesn't mean you have plenty to drink. For all practical purposes, you're limited by the amount of stove fuel you have. Yes, you _can_ catch drips, squeeze it from your clothing (yuck!), and melt snow with your body heat, but you can't stay ahead of dehydration.

I don't bring that up to discourage anyone - I'm optimistic that these well prepared climbers brought plenty of stove fuel. I just don't want anyone thinking they can count on eating snow for hydration.

Oh, along those lines, when cooking and melting show in a cave, ventilate it! Carbon monoxide and all that. "

[_Jim]

Doesn't appear these climbers were wearing Mountaain Locator Units either.

Some background on MLUs in situ can be had here: /www.939arw.afrc.af.mil/news/story.asp?storyID=123019595

Excerpt:

Luckily, the missing climbers were wearing a mountain locator unit (a personal locator devise attached to a belt.) The MLU was developed after the 1986 Oregon Episcopal School tragedy. During that incident, nine students and faculty members died of exposure when they were overcome by bad weather during an annual wilderness hike to the Mount Hood Summit.

Now rescuers can use a Yaggi directional antenna, to track a signal being transmitted from the missing climber's MLU.

[george76]

This may be interesting :

" Wireless 2-Way Radios - FRS/GMRS "

http://www.casanovasadventures.com/catalog/2-wayradio/p1170.htm

[_Jim]

An example of the use of VHF 2-way radio on Oregon's state SAR frequency by the use of that frequency by the Accident victims themselves:

www.traditionalmountaineering.org/Trip_VHF.htm

On June 20, 2000 two OMA members were caught in rockfall on the Sandy Glacier Headwall on Mt Hood. They had a VHF with various frequencies programmed into it, including the state SAR frequency. ...

The licensee of the state SAR frequency is the Oregon Department of Emergency Management and they have clarified that such emergency use is entirely appropriate. Carrying a VHF radio would also appear to be fully in accordance with HB 3434. This was enacted ... in 1996 or 1997 and attempts to mandate that climbers carry "mountain locator units, cellular phones or other technological devices". A VHF radio has many compelling advantages over both a cell phone and a locator unit. So on one hand we have legislators attempting to mandate the use of communications technology for safety purposes and on the other hand we have the US Forest Service and the Clackamas County Sheriff criticizing a party which does so.

To carry a VHF radio, and to listen to one, is entirely legal. This is the frequency band that common scanners cover. To transmit on a frequency requires that you license that frequency or have the permission of the licensee. We have confirmed with the licensee that permission in an accident such as that of June 2000 is implicit. The Oregon Department of Emergency Management licenses the SAR frequency for emergency use. It turns out that they were also confused by the criticism in the press, and they have stated that the use of the frequency by the climbers involved was entirely appropriate.

When the SAR operation began the climbers were contacted by the sheriffs deputy on the VHF radio. And by the ground crew on standby. And the 939th rescue crew as they approached. Conversations were initiated by these organization and the climbers replied. At no point were they instructed that they should not transmit anything due to a lack of permission from the licensee. The sheriffs deputy did not hesitate to transmit questions requiring a reply.

A rescue where the stranded party has a radio should be much better for the rescue groups responding. They can get direct information on the location, condition, and other factors. In most rescues they are left guessing until they arrive on the scene.

While climbing parties with such a radio are not common they sometimes exist. These climbers owned one and therefore carried it for emergency use. The University of Oregon equipment "library" includes radios as well as cell phones and avalanche beacons. Members of rescue units have been known to carry such a radio when climbing recreationally.

[_Jim]

With all due respect I have built out systems for the wireless space since the early 90's. I know many of the particulars but this is hardly the place for that level of discussion..

I disagree; if not here, where? In private? I think the others would benefit from hearing 'specifics' on such a topic.

[Domandred]

Here is some more information from equipped.com

http://equipped.com/406_beacon_test2_toc.htm

[crz]

I got a brother and kids who have gone up that mountain a couple times. They tell me this does not look good.

They found an unusual object under the snow while flying over. They are going to check it out. As I type this...they must be at that site now.