Posted on 12/16/2006 3:59:48 PM PST by VictoryGal
I suspect most of the FReepers here praising Bush for his elegance and good manners support gay marriage--or are at least ambivalent about the issue.
"Re the line: "God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done."
Doesn't this make God the author of sin? Or at least the facilitator of sin? And isn't there a conflict between this and God's holding people accountable for their actions?"
Those very good questions.
Sin is the condition that results when separated from God.
God gave humans free will to choose Him, or separation from Him. Because of free will, we choose our condition. God allows this on Earth.
Does that explanation help?
After posting to you, I thought of a good analogy. Think God = Light.
Darkness is the absence of Light.
Those who choose darkness go through life blindly without light as a consequence.
Suspect and judge all you want or care to.
Thanks.
I am a struggling agnostic who's recently gone back to reading the Bible again. Try as I might, I can't find any support in the Bible for human free will. Instead, there are dozens of instances where the Bible talks about divine sovereignty and predestination - the old ( now largely ignored ) Calvinist notions of election and reprobation.
In other words, God has chosen certain people for salvation and others for damnation - and this choice has nothing to do with any foreknowledge God has about the conduct on the individual in question.
I find all this completely counter-intuitive. The only way I can make sense of it is by going back to first principles: The Bible is the word of God. The Bible says that God is good and just. It also says that God elects certain people for Heaven, others for Hell. Therefore this is a good and just thing by definition of the fact that God wills it - even if it seems "unfair" by human notions of justice.
Sorry if this doesn't make much sense, but I'm still struggling to understand it. I know that there are arguments on both sides.
That's a really great post. Food for thought :-)
You're welcome. I went through an agnostic period myself, after being kicked out of the Catholic church. That's a whole other story in itself, but the Lord used that to help me find Him. After that, I, too, began to read the Bible and ran into lots of questions.
What I did, and would recommend the same for you or anyone in the seeking position, was to ask God to show me the answers. At that time I wasn't even sure he existed.
He did answer over the years, in circumstances showing me his Truths, by bringing people to me that would help me understand what He wanted me to see. For that I am very thankful. I've asked the Lord to please show you wisdom and understanding. You can't go wrong rereading the Bible, which I've discovered to be God's User Manual for our lives.
To me, our few postings are God's way of pointing me to something He wants me to learn. I have never thought about the questions you bring up in your last post to me--so a heartfelt thanks to you. I'm no biblical scholar, but did come up with some searches that are along those lines that you may be interested in reading. I will be reading them, too. If you find anything else that might be good, too, please pass them on.
http://www.christiananswers.net/q-acb/acb-t008.html
What does the Bible say about God's sovereignty, election, predestination, and man's free will?
http://www.theopedia.com/Free_will
Free Will - Probably the most common definition of free will is the "ability to make choices without any prior prejudice, inclination, or disposition,"1 and specifically that these "free will" choices are not ultimately predestined by God. "
http://www.biblelife.org/election.htm
God's Election and Man's Free Will!
http://www.jesussaidfollowme.org/calvinismarminianism.htm?gclid=CPrNh9yFmokCFREXEAodSUxrNg
"Calvinism, Arminianism, & Creditism?"
http://members.tripod.com/carla_b/realfacts/free_will.html
DOES THE BIBLE TEACH FREE WILL?
http://home.rochester.rr.com/matthewl/predestination/
PREDESTINATION OR FREE WILL
http://www.carm.org/open/free_will.htm
Open Theism and Libertarian Free Will
http://www.seekerstrove.com/predestination.html
Predestination
http://experts.about.com/q/Bible-Studies-1654/Free-vs-fate.htm
According to Christianity, does God control our future and every action we make through fate, or is there a mix of free will?
http://www.studybibleforum.com/spages/Predestination%20free%20will.htm
Was Pharaoh responsible?
I've also found Come Reason Ministries a good place for questions in the past:
http://www.googlesyndicatedsearch.com/u/comereason?q=free+will&sa=Search&sp-a=sp10010bee&sp-p=any&sp-f=iso-8859-1
FREE WILL
How can a lesbian be a "fine mom"? No matter what else she does, she has denied her child a father and engaged in a deviant and sinful lifestyle in plain sight of her child.
I think the bets thing would be to say "I wish the best for this child," and say nothing about the "parents."
Thank you so much.
I'll read all the material you posted, and will pass it on to people I know who are in the same boat.
I've had many long Arminianism vs Calvinism discussions with people in the past, and your material addresses many of the controversies.
Much appreciated. Hope to talk with you again soon.
John x
Unless he makes the effort to place his personal comments in context,
So, he should have a daily dairy upon which he clarifies every word he ever utters, eh?
the clear implication is that his views have somehow evolved and he now fully accepts and even celebrates these corrosive frauds on traditional marriage.
How is it that I can still recall his positions of years back, hear his well wishes for Mary Cheney, and suffer absolutely no confusion, conflict, or misunderstanding of his clarity -- but you cannot. Is it that you choose to behave this way?
"How can a lesbian be a "fine mom"? No matter what else she does, she has denied her child a father and engaged in a deviant and sinful lifestyle in plain sight of her child."
That stuff doesn't matter to the neocons. They're afraid the republicans will lose votes and be tainted as "moralists".
We have to approve of immoral behavior to be accepted with our own party now. (Or what used to be "the party").
Far from being a "fine mom," Mary Cheney is behaving on the level of an animal being bred for its offspring, so she and her partner in delusion can selfishly continue playing "pretend family."
You're welcome John x. And thanks to you, too. I'm reading the posts, now. Write anytime and Merry Christmas!
What does anyone expect him to say publicly? He's too much of a gentleman to excoriate her and her 'partner' in a public manner, even if he did feel they were wrong in their choice.
"I think the bets thing would be to say "I wish the best for this child," and say nothing about the "parents."
I agree with you totally on that. That would have been the best statement.
Despite what the libtards constantly say, Bush is actually the most gay friendly Republican President or Republican Presidential candidate. The only thing he doesn't want is gay marriage, but as usual, for libs that makes him no different than Jerry Falwell or that 'God Hates Fags' guy in Kansas. Dick Cheney has always been even more gay friendly.
His efforts to "reach out" to Log Cabin Republicans was not lost on me.
Despite what the libtards constantly say, Bush is actually the most gay friendly Republican President or Republican Presidential candidate. The only thing he doesn't want is gay marriage, but as usual, for libs that makes him no different than Jerry Falwell or that 'God Hates Fags' guy in Kansas. Dick Cheney has always been even more gay friendly.
I wanted to admit that in real life I don't really think President Bush is a latent homosexual, nor do I have anything against Vice President Cheney, nor do I really think that about Onyx, nor would I say anything like that face-to-face. But some people in their unfailing loyalty to a political figure/party sure go out of their way to solicit hyperbolic remarks like mine, however.
You admit you are a puppet. Your behavior is not your responsibility. fnord
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