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To: Michael81Dus
Honestly, have you ever thought of the idea that some of your forefathers did not leave their homes based on a free decision?

You're right, some of my forefathers were transported prisoners, fought on the losing side of one of Europe's civil wars. However, most of my forefathers made the choice for a variety of reasons. Some were lured by economic opportunity, while others left Europe to get away from the state religions of the nations they left.

All of my ancestors left Europe before the twentieth century, with the latest leaving different German states. Several left Prussia in the mid-nineteenth century & if you know your nation's history, you'd know the move was probably done by them for economic reasons. Wars have an immediate economic impact on the population. It took a couple of decades before the ones from Bavaria, Hanover & Berlin all did the same, probably due to the draw of economic opportunity.

The Norwegian & Swedish ancestors also left Europe in the mid-nineteenth century for economic reasons.

Can you imagine that Europe was more developed than America even in the early last century, and that living in New York was almost as bad as living in New Delhi or Bombay is today?

Living in European cities was no picnic at the beginning of the Twentieth century either, unless you were among the upper class.

No, America got its advantage through Europe´s bad luck of having had two world wars on its soil.

It almost sounds like you think Europe's constant, ongoing wars had no European origins. The wars weren't caused by "bad luck", just as the development after the second world war didn't come about through "good luck". The Marshall Plan after WWII, as opposed to the old European style settlement after WWI seems to have worked. America's European children are acting much like any typical teen, smugly smarter than their parents. We learned from our European history & chose a new path. Europe, an older civilization stayed with their older template longer, which is how her children became her parents.

No wonder the best skilled people of Europe chose to escape from this place.

We took in a whole lot more of Europe's cast offs than her "best skilled people".

Don´t be proud of your forefathers decisions, you cannot be proud of that! You can just be proud for what you´ve accomplished and achieved in your lives.

I can and am proud of both.

What are you going to say to people who had not the luck to live in such nice countries we live in?

Most of my ancestors came here with almost nothing, rolled up their sleeves & helped to build this nation. Most of them made their own "luck". They helped build communities, where there had previously been none. They build homes, schools, churches & businesses, literally.

I don't begrudge anything to those who came over later, cuz they came to build upon everything my ancestors had built. America assumes society is a win/win proposition (other than the American left). Much of Europe assumes society is always a win/lose proposition, which is why it puts a lot of energy & resources towards the big old "safety net".

That they cannot be proud of their lives?

They no longer can, cuz they're dead. :o)

Your thoughts seem strange to me.

Course they do, because you're probably somewhere in that win/lose mentality that I mentioned. You think more about the strength of the safety net & less about building the "impossible".

Starting at the age of twenty-one, I began trying to help build the impossible. The American government mostly stayed out of the way. I think if we had tried to do the same in Europe, we would have failed, cuz we would have gotten tangled up & dragged down by the safety net.

168 posted on 12/15/2006 12:04:03 PM PST by GoLightly
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To: GoLightly

Can you please describe the word "pride" in your own words?


231 posted on 12/16/2006 8:49:09 AM PST by Michael81Dus
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