[Phsstpok]

if the key is Baghdad, and the generals running the thing can't get it done, which they obviously haven't, why does the Prez not find the ones who can?

The problem isn't the generals.  It's the rules of engagement and those are set here in the US, primarily in Washington, but also all across the country in what we, the people, are willing to stomach.  We, collectively, has gone soft and aren't willing to do what needs to be done.

You can't blame the generals for failing if they're not allowed to fight 90% of the time or with any more than 10% of their available power.  You can, however, blame them for accepting those rules of engagement and enforcing them, but not for formulating them.  Of course, any officer he believed in all out war was drummed out of our modern PC military during the 90s as a "Neanderthal brute."

[Bahbah]

You can't blame the generals for failing if they're not allowed to fight 90% of the time or with any more than 10% of their available power.

I agree with you completely and should have more fully expressed myself. I have complained about the ROE before which I think are insane and suicidal.

I guess what I want is a general who demands that he be allowed to fight this thing. I think if this does not happen, loss is inevitable, and it is a loss we cannot afford. We can't aquiesce with every complaint of the Iraqis and they can't be allowed to tell us what we can and cannot do, but that, it seems, is what is going on.

[rodguy911]

I think MNJ has the best explanation I have heard. We have to take down terrorists who wear hoods carry ak's,rocket launcher one minute and are praying in a mosque the next, it's hard to sort out the bad guys from the good ones.

It would be easy if all we had to do was go in and blow everything up, clean up the mess and then go home, but the same suspects would be left in this particular case.

Fighting someone who hires 12 years olds(literally pays their families money) to blow themselves and a few locals up is not what US troops have been trained for but it's the name of the game for now.

If anyone can change the tide we can.

[MNJohnnie]

The Russians had no ROE in Afghanistan, how did it work out for them?

This is why you need to get the Iraqis up and running and get the US Conventional forces out of the way. The mindset for successful Counter Insurgency and the mindset of Conventional Military thinkers is at odds. There seems to be a fundamental mental block in Americans thinking. They simply cannot seem to grasp unrestricted use of firepower creates, it does NOT solve, the problem in this type of mission.

Conventional Warfare you can use a shotgun approach. When you cannot tell the difference between the sheep and the wolves you need to use a sniper rife.