10 SECONDS OF HELL IN QUEENS (Driver refuses officer's order to halt)

NY Post ^ | 11/27/2006 | Murray Weiss

[RGSpincich]

-snip-

Dramatic new details of the deadly mayhem include the undercover cop at one point climbing onto the hood of Bell's car - his gun drawn and his police shield around his neck - screaming, "Police! Turn off your car! Let me see your hands!" said sources who talked to some of the cops involved in the shooting.

When Bell then tried to run down the plainclothes officer - twice - the cop began shooting, with some of his 11 bullets piercing the rear window of the man's Nissan Altima, the sources said. -snip-

[Ford4000]

Thanks for the lecture. Your version of the events is exactly what the NYPD officers have asserted. If you think that the police can be entirely trusted in situations like this, it is you who are in a fantasy land. They know it was a big screw-up and are protecting themselves and their fellow officers (to what extent remains to be seen).
The fact (which you gloss over) is that the officer was undercover and that the group of individuals did not know that. Were they fleeing because they thought he was an p/o or a thug? If it was the latter, was that reaction unforeseeable and what was the plan if it happened? Can they really expect someone fleeing for their lives from criminals to stop if someone out of uniform says "I'm a police officer"? The fact that 50 rounds were fired at a car full of innocent and unarmed people tells me that there was a lack of critical thinking before the operation started.

[Mad Dawg]

Nice post!

106 mph! You have expensive tastes!

I think you should sue us for profiling. Just because the average reckless in the umpteenth degree driver is a real major drug-zonked baddie doesn't mean that each and every one of them shouldn't be treated with the utmost courtesy and respect: Sir, I'm dreadfully sorry, but I'm going to have to ask you to step out of your automobile and put your hands behind your back. Please don't hesitate to tell me if these cuffs are in anyway restrictive or uncomfortable. Can I get you a donut?
Um SARCASM OFF.

Thanks for your post. I hope they treat you fairly and I hope you get a chance to tell them (a)that you think they did right and well; and (b) maybe get a chance to "preach" to some high schoolers or somesuch.

A judge and I were hoping to get access to some civics classes at the 11th or 12th grade level and explain to the little darlings that once they hit 18, it's the real world, and what they do counts. The number of collitch kids who are really astonished to learn that, yep, they're grownups now, and this is for real is itself astonishing.

[mockingbyrd]

I hear you completely. This is a messed up situation. I am not comfortable with all the police officers actions, partly because of issues we have had here, three unarmed people killed by cops in two weeks. But I don't know the whole story, and probably never will hear it from the MSM.

And I have little to no sympathy for the guy shot. For exactly the reasons you stated.

[Mad Dawg]

PPPPPP
Prior Planning Prevents P*ss Poor Performance. No question about it.

The fact that 50 rounds were fired at a car full of innocent and unarmed people tells me that there was a lack of critical thinking before the operation started.
Assumes facts not in evidence.
And don't say "innocent until proved guilty" as a defense because you have already pronounced a judgment on the officers' honesty -- as a principal of determining facts and not as a conclusion based on the facts in this case.

An officer says he displayed his badge of authority and announced himself to be "police". It's not clear, therefore, that the individuals did not know that they were dealing with the police. As you say, there are two (actually more) possible explanations for the (alleged) attempt to ram the officer and the other vehicles. One is that it was because they thought they were police. This kind of touches on the "innocent and unarmed" allegation.

And, I say again, while stipulating that some officers play fast and loose with the truth (at least around here, if they get caught, their career in Law Enforcement is over -- for one thing, judges won't believe them any more.) another issue that is overlooked in the face of conflicting stories is the affect, increasingly well documented, of adrenaline and all the other stress hormones on perception and memory.

It does intrigue me that "innocent until proven guilty" is so rarely applied to the police in these conversations. I happen to know some guys who really are committed to telling the truth, but on FR a popular if not pervasive assumption is that ALL cops lie.

If you think that, what are you as a citizen doing to improve or solve the problem? This is, at least notionally, a republic, and you have responsibilities. If the cops in your community are morally corrupt as you evidently know them to be, have you spoken to your representative? Have you run for office? I hope so. It would be good to have principled thoughtful people addressing the problem.

[Ford4000]

My judgement of "innocent" pertains to the fact they were innocent of weapons posession. There is a question as to what happened first: the fleeing or the officer identifying himself. If it was the latter, then there was no excuse for them trying to flee.

[Silly]

This story is a classic example of how only one side of the story is told, and both sides are guilty (reporters, I mean).

I realize it's a bit soon, but I have yet to read a comprehensive, balanced article on this incident. It is nearly impossible to know who to trust in the reporting.

If anyone has a link to a factual, complete, well-balanced article, I would love to have it.

[Mad Dawg]

There's also a question about the weapons possession -- owing to the admittedly slender evidence of some cartridge cases in one automobile. (I'd hate to think what they'd find down on the pre-Cambrian layer of detritus in my car. I bet I have a functioning full auto AK-47 AND a RPG launcher in there - I COULD anyway, if they haven't fermented or composted yet) But if we stipulate the innocnce there, we still have the trying to run down the cop - attempted vehicular homicide maybe? Probable cause?

[beezdotcom]

Five cops involved. 31 shots for one cop, 3 for another, that leaves 16 rounds for the other three cops. Sounds like only one guy was reloading - it will be interesting to hear his explanation.

[RGSpincich]

If anyone has a link to a factual, complete, well-balanced article, I would love to have it.

LOL. To think that one could draw a chuckle for making such a sane request.

[RebelTex]

"To think that one could draw a chuckle for making such a sane request."

Now you know why his/her screen name is 'Silly', LOL.

[Centurion2000]

I think the problem is the fact that the cops were UNDERCOVER cops, dressed in mufti, i.e. dressed like hoodlums. Who can tell if you're being hijacked or not. Traffic stops need to be done by UNIFORMED cops dressed like policemen with their cap and uniform visible to the driver.

I pray that no undercover cop ever tries to stop me in this same situation because I WILL open fire.

[Ford4000]

In a narrow legal sense, yes. However, if the guy was fleeing before the p/o identified himself he might have been panicked and refused to believe the i.d. If he was alive, he could probably win at trial.

[Mad Dawg]

I pray that no undercover cop ever tries to stop me in this same situation because I WILL open fire.

I think we'd all like to minimize the chances of that's happening. I would do my best to stay away from legally suspect strip clubs at three in the morning. Yeah, you have a right to go there. You also have a right to run with scissors.

There's a conncetion between thinking life is morally valueless and thinking life is cheap. Places where tarts and their pimps hang are places of death. That may not be fair or constitutional. It's just true, IMHO.

[Mad Dawg]

In a narrow legal sense? Win at trial? Trial for what?

Let's look at the beginning of this. It's AFTER the wee hours of the morning. It's by a nightclub known for violations. guns have been mentioned and more than once. It sho' 'nuff sounds like prostitution is not a stranger to this locale.

This is the real world, where lives may be at stake without the deliberations of due process of law. The guys talking about "F*cking so-and-so up," are not talking as if they're thinking in terms of preliminary hearings and methodical arguments with meticulous consideration of objections.

There is arguably probable cause ("I'll do one or two of you, but not all") to suspect prostitution is about to happen right now. There is arguably probable cause ("get the gun," "f*ck him up,") to think that ag assault or homicide is about to happen really soon.

How deliberate do YOU feel like being right about now? "Oh, I want to make sure we have a good plan, and maybe wait for some uniforms to show up and, well, if the guy gets shot before we can do that, those are the breaks." It's not a no-brainer of a decision. I still torment myself with the recollection of a lovely woman whom I should have locked up, but didn't. Fortunately she got home in one piece and lives to mess up her mind again. If I get another chance, though, I'll arrest first and take my chances.

So, maybe you disapprove, but it sounded like there was enough going on for at least a conversation between an officer and the folks headed for the car. But when the officer -- lying no doubt, but let's play along -- identifies himself they run for the car and aim the car at him. Innocent and unarmed as they indubitably are, isn't this at least interesting?

If the officer's account is somewhere near the truth -- by coincidence, of course, not by intention -- who do you think started the fight and kicked it up to the deadly force level? The cop says "Police!" The others let their car do the talking and it says, "Vroom, vroom, squeal, roar" ... right at the cop. THis is not a situation conducive to set-piece battles and Montgomery like strateric planning.

No, maybe you're right. Innocent and unarmed people just tapped a pedestrian and two vehicles and were gunned down by two blacks, a hispanic and two whites because of bigotry and impulsiveness.

If those are the choices, which one do you bet on?

- - - - - - My Imperial Crustiness.

[Ford4000]

As far as is known now, the talk about getting a gun was all talk and/or lies- at least until they find the other occupant. I am reserving judgement until we hear from more than just the NYPD for reasons which seem obvious to everybody but police officers.

[Kenny Bunk]

YIC, etc. etc,

Has anyone stopped to consider that perhaps the three probationary citizens in the vehicle under fire should never have been on the streets to begin with?

It is my suspicion (totally unfounded) that I been on the parole board, these three registered democrats would still have been in durance vile, making li'l ones outa big ones. Perhaps the kid would still be on beer can patrol in an orange jumpsuit along one of our scenic highways.

As I peruse the NYC papers, pursuant to Your Imperial Crustiness' directives, I am also entranced by their description of the dead chap as "The Bridegroom." If I can have a copy of the Bride's rap sheet, I would appreciate it.

It could fill in juicy details enquiring minds want to know.

[photodawg]

Thanks for the lecture. Your version of the events is exactly what the NYPD officers have asserted. If you think that the police can be entirely trusted in situations like this, it is you who are in a fantasy land. They know it was a big screw-up and are protecting themselves and their fellow officers (to what extent remains to be seen).
''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''

Sir , you are paranoid and delusional. You probably also think that Bush/Cheney masterminded 9-11.

The under cover officers showed their badge and one officer jumpped on the hood of the car to be recognized with his ID. The lowlife perpetrator now in critical condition has an arrest record including a felony conviction for selling crack cocaine in a school yard (2yr sentence) and robbery and assault with a deadly weapon (2 yr sentence). He is presently 21 years old. It's friggin' morons like you who enable these scum bags to get away with this bull s**t. The reality of this incident, as facts come to lite will support the police. Sharpton and the rest of the community racists, instead of defending "these kids" should be defending the police, who undoubtedly live in the community and put their life on the line to protect it, as demonstrated by the 100's of dead police and firemen who gave their lives on 9-11 a few short miles from where this incident took place. You should be ashamed of yourself for your f-ing disrespectful attitude . I tried to give you some insight from my own experiences and asked for yours, but instead you took it as a lecture. I was looking for some common ground to discuss things. Obviously you are immature with a chip on your shoulder and I am wasting my time and my considerable intellect on someone who is too stupid to understand the world as it exists and doesn't want to learn. Why don't you just run over to Democratic underground with the rest of the raving lunatics who yell f-the police every time someone tells them not to do something. Or maybe you've already served some time in prison for something you undoubtedly are guilty of but are still blaming the police for. Or perhaps you are just a race baiting America hater that thinks "black" is a synonym for oppressed.

[Cap'n Crunch]

Your Imperial Crustiness... Thou art the shizzle. It's been a pleasure enjoying your masterful account of the facts and circumstances leading to the demise of said hooligans.

Professor, I salute you.

Now it's time for another beer.

[Rembrandt]

"Are you going to respond and debate the points of the article or are you going to be a hit-and-run poster like Doc Savage?"
~~~
I'm going to spend my time debating rational people. If that troubles you, then that is your problem; it's not mine.

[Mad Dawg]

It's the old Saddam Hussein defense, huh? I had to pretend I had weapons but I will reserve the right to be offended when somebody believes my pretense,

Yep, final judgement would best be reserved until we have somthing other than newsies to base our evaluation on.