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ZULU wrote:
What too many Americans fail to realize is that the war in IRaq is really a battle in a greater war against Islam. Upon the outcome of this greater war lies everything western civilization has so dearly achieved over many centuries.

I understand it. I have written about the true nature of the struggle we're in numerous times in this forum.

But I've come to the conclusion that there is nothing more we can do to achieve "victory" in Iraq, for what it's worth.

We toppled Saddam and got rid of his henchmen. We overthrew the Iraqi military. We made certain their were no weapons of mass destruction hidden in the country. We pacified at least _most_ of the country. We have worked to reconstruct infrastructure that was destroyed in the war. And we laid the foundations for "free" elections, and [in what seemed to be a triumphant moment at the time] gave the Iraqis a democratically-elected government.

So what was one of the first things they did?

They wrote into their constitution that _Islam_ would be the state religion.

When I saw that, I realized that our efforts were doomed to go down the drain.

The closest analogy I could make is permitting the Germans to freely re-elect the Nazis to power after their defeat in World War II.

We have not "brought democracy to Iraq". If we were to have done that, one of the bedrock principles of a budding democracy would have been "freedom of religion" - NOT Islam as the "official" religion.

If we were to have brought democracy to Iraq as we did to Japan following the Second World War, it is we, and not they, who would have written a constitution for them that adheres to the precepts of western democracy and freedom. We HAVE NOT (shouting intentional) done so, when we have permitted Islam to be retained as the state religion.

Years back, Arlo Guthrie said halfway into Alice's Restaurant, "This is a song about Alice, remember?"

And like ZULU writes above, "the war in Iraq is really a battle in a greater war against Islam".

Fair enough, Mr. ZULU is telling it like it is, and I'm in complete agreement with him. I sense that many readers of this posting share similar viewpoints.

But if the war in Iraq _is_ but a battle in a greater war with Islam, why in tarnation did we permit it to remain an intolerant Islamic state? This is "victory"? What might BE "victory"?

To paraphrase Arlo, "this is a war about Islam, remember"?

- John

They wrote into their constitution that _Islam_ would be the state religion.

When I saw that, I realized that our efforts were doomed to go down the drain.

The closest analogy I could make is permitting the Germans to freely re-elect the Nazis to power after their defeat in World War II.

We have not "brought democracy to Iraq". If we were to have done that, one of the bedrock principles of a budding democracy would have been "freedom of religion" - NOT Islam as the "official" religion......This is "victory"? What might BE "victory"?

OUTSTANDING - you summed it up perfectly.
Not to mention they also wrote into their constitution...NO LAW SHALL CONTRADICT ISLAM.

"efforts were doomed to go down the drain."

This is all anyone needs to know about Iraq today - that we are fighting FOR ISLAM. not for freedom.

"But I've come to the conclusion that there is nothing more we can do to achieve "victory" in Iraq, for what it's worth."

What you are saying is true, had we pulled out right after accomplishing th goals you enumerated. However, if even if did leave Iraq under such circumstances, we still have the problem of Iran and Syria.

One of the many reasons for taking out Saddam and invading Iraq, should have been using it and Afghanistan to eliminate the Ayatollahs in Iran, and using Israel to help us clean out the Baathists in Syria. Where we failed was in turning a punitive expedition in force into a social service experiment, using American money and lives.

"So what was one of the first things they did?

They wrote into their constitution that Islam would be the state religion.

When I saw that, I realized that our efforts were doomed to go down the drain.

The closest analogy I could make is permitting the Germans to freely re-elect the Nazis to power after their defeat in World War II."

VERY WELL SAID. Which is one of the reasons we should never have gotten into a quagmire there, of trying to treat these savages like civilized people. They are savages, regardless of how politely they may speak or how educated they may appear. They are savages because they are driven by a primitive cult, masquerading as a religion, which drives their entire world view on every subject.

In our dealings with them, our own, immediate best interests should not be paramount, they should be exclusive. As long as these people follow Islam, and as long as they do not modernize their faith, they will never change their behavior patterns.

We have even witnessed the weasel who officiates Iraq running off to make nice with the Ayatollahs and Baathists.

"But if the war in Iraq is but a battle in a greater war with Islam, why in tarnation did we permit it to remain an intolerant Islamic state? This is "victory"? What might BE "victory"?"

Good question. Short of forcibly converting these savages, the best we can hope to do is isolate them in their own countries, remove them from those countires they have already invaded, and draw a line in the sand beyond which they cannot cross without immediate military consequences the results of which would be far too painful for even these fanatics to bear.

I have long been an advocate of getting Muslims out of the United States, stopping their immigration here, and shutting down their madrasshes and mosques. The same thing must be done in western Europe, in subsaharan Africa and in those areas of Asia not already domianted by Islam.

The time for tolerance and negotiating with these people has come and gone.

They are committed to dominating the world and forcibly converting all non-Muslims or reducing them to second class citizenship. Unless the entire non-Sialmic world - Christians, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, atheists, etc, wake up and face this, their children will grow up in a country which looks very much like what Afghanistan did under the Taliban, or Saudi Arabia looks like today.