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Secret's Out For Saracens Sabres (Damascus Steel)
New Scientist ^ | 11-15-2006

Posted on 11/15/2006 11:04:58 AM PST by blam

Secret's out for Saracen sabres

15 November 2006
NewScientist.com news service

DURING the middle ages, the Muslims who fought crusaders with swords of Damascus steel had an edge - a very high-tech one. Their sabres contained carbon nanotubes.

From about AD 900 to AD 1750, Damascus sabres were forged from Indian steel called wootz. Peter Paufler of the Technical University of Dresden, Germany, and colleagues studied samples of a 17th-century sword under an electron microscope and found clear evidence of carbon nanotubes and even nanowires.

The researchers think that the sophisticated process of forging and annealing the steel formed the nanotubes and the nanowires, and could explain the amazing mechanical properties of the swords (Nature, vol 444, p 286).

From issue 2578 of New Scientist magazine, 15 November 2006, page 20

(Excerpt) Read more at newscientisttech.com ...


TOPICS: News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: damascus; metallurgy; nanotechnology; nanotubes; saracen; secret; steel
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To: TexanToTheCore
And if you want to compare light swords to Japanese swords the rapier was one of the most lethal weapons ever invented in the hands of cavalry office of the 17th century. Would have been no contest. Samurai down in under a minute.

As someone who has contested with all three (European "broadsword", Katana, and Rapier), I know better. It ain't the weapon, it's the circumstances and, foremost, the relative skill of the users.

41 posted on 11/15/2006 2:43:41 PM PST by LexBaird (98% satisfaction guaranteed. There's just no pleasing some people.)
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To: Xenalyte
That's it. I have GOT to get me a wootz blade. Mostly so I can tell people, "Yeah, it's made of wootz."

I believe Jim Hrisoulis occasionally makes his own, from scratch, wootz steel weapons. Try here.

He ain't cheap, however.

42 posted on 11/15/2006 2:46:51 PM PST by LexBaird (98% satisfaction guaranteed. There's just no pleasing some people.)
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To: Phsstpok

Afgans had some of the most accurate rifles in the world 200 years ago.


43 posted on 11/15/2006 2:48:40 PM PST by justshutupandtakeit (If you believe ANYTHING in the Treason Media you are a fool.)
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To: blam

The modern equivalent is folded steel. Heat, fold the steel, smash it flat and thin, heat it, fold it over, hammer it some more, and quench in a plump Nubian slave which adds carbon to the steel. They did this work in India, true, and the Arabs prized their Damascus blades highly since they were both tough [did not break during battle, which is a major plus] and carried a very sharp and durable edge.


44 posted on 11/15/2006 2:49:12 PM PST by RightWhale (RTRA DLQS GSCW)
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To: TexanToTheCore

I dry shave with a buck knife when camping...


45 posted on 11/15/2006 2:53:13 PM PST by johnny7 ("We took a hell of a beating." -'Vinegar Joe' Stilwell)
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To: LexBaird

"As someone who has contested with all three (European "broadsword", Katana, and Rapier), I know better. It ain't the weapon, it's the circumstances and, foremost, the relative skill of the users."


As have I. The Katana is no match for a decent European sword. In sword fighting, there are no rules. My first hit would be to your legs and my second would be to your sword hand. After that, my choice as to the order of hits.


46 posted on 11/15/2006 2:54:16 PM PST by TexanToTheCore (This space for hire...)
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To: TexanToTheCore

Check the link at #42, and go to the pattern welded section. Pretty pictures of different damascus patterns.


47 posted on 11/15/2006 2:55:28 PM PST by LexBaird (98% satisfaction guaranteed. There's just no pleasing some people.)
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To: blam

The pressure hull must be flexible but must not bend. Did you ever do the experiment where you tie a rope tight to some equipment across the aisle from one side of the sub to the other side while on the surface and then dive to some depth? The rope will hang loose at depth as the pressure hull is compressed in diameter, which comes as a surprise to some the first time they see it happen.


48 posted on 11/15/2006 2:58:02 PM PST by RightWhale (RTRA DLQS GSCW)
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To: TexanToTheCore

Actually, given my choice of armament, I would use both a rapier as well as a 10 to 14 inch dagger in the classic European style. You would be cinnamon toast on a stick.


49 posted on 11/15/2006 2:58:34 PM PST by TexanToTheCore (This space for hire...)
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To: ExpandNATO
One problem, as I have read it, is that "Damascus steel" was not a common standard, that was replicated exactly from place to place as a modern factory would today. The formulas and methods varied widely, as did the quality of the weapons.
50 posted on 11/15/2006 3:00:13 PM PST by SoCal Pubbie
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To: TexanToTheCore; LexBaird
A comparison of the European knight and Japanese samurai. Perhaps you may find it interesting:

http://www.thearma.org/essays/knightvs.htm
51 posted on 11/15/2006 3:03:11 PM PST by SoCal Pubbie
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To: TexanToTheCore
My first hit would be to your legs and my second would be to your sword hand. After that, my choice as to the order of hits.

My reply would be to void the leg shot and cut your advancing wrist, it likely being low in third. Skill would determine which of us pulled off his intention, not the weapon in hand.

52 posted on 11/15/2006 3:06:03 PM PST by LexBaird (98% satisfaction guaranteed. There's just no pleasing some people.)
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To: RightWhale
"Did you ever do the experiment where you tie a rope tight to some equipment across the aisle from one side of the sub to the other side while on the surface and then dive to some depth? "

No, I never tried that although, I understand it.

53 posted on 11/15/2006 3:09:50 PM PST by blam
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To: Xenalyte

There is only a handful of people today who can make TRUE Damascus steel, that is steel made using the wootz process.
Most "damascus" steels today are really pattern welded steels made up of high and low carbon steel or iron.

In the wootz process iron and carbon are put into a closed
crucible and heated to melting temperature at which time the crucible is pulled from the fire and allowed to cool.
The resultant doughnut, for lack of a better term is then
reheated by itself, punched through the center into a true doughnut shape which is then cut and straightened out to make the blade material, it may then be pattern welded however True Damascus was never done that way, any pattern was the result of the smelting process.
The forging of the blade itself was very critical as regards
temperature and the final hardening and tempering process,
much more so than so-called damascus steels today.

As this was always a more or less oral tradition it was "lost" for hundreds of years, although I feel sure there
are written records in middle eastern repositories somewhere.

As a blacksmith I experimented with the wootz process and japanese sword making processes, including multipart billets
where high carbon is used for the blade, medium for the scales or sides and softer for the back. Also developed techniques for hardening to produce the "temper"line and various surface effects.

Some of the people I knew who followed this line of research ended up working for the federal Govt developing
tank armor etc, who if you just saw them you would think
hicks, hayseeds, hillbillys, but they knew more about
metalurgy than a lot of professors and knew it from a physical interface so that it was almost in their blood.

Tet68
American Art Forge.


54 posted on 11/15/2006 3:13:03 PM PST by tet68 ( " We would not die in that man's company, that fears his fellowship to die with us...." Henry V.)
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To: SoCal Pubbie
The Samurai And The Ainu
55 posted on 11/15/2006 3:13:03 PM PST by blam
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To: TexanToTheCore
Actually, given my choice of armament, I would use both a rapier as well as a 10 to 14 inch dagger in the classic European style. You would be cinnamon toast on a stick.

I've been on both sides of that equation, and had victories and losses with either weapon choice. Prefer the rapier and buckler, myself.

I still contend it is not the weapon, but the weilder which determines victory.

56 posted on 11/15/2006 3:13:25 PM PST by LexBaird (98% satisfaction guaranteed. There's just no pleasing some people.)
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To: blam

The commander might not allow such activity during live missions. During the shakeout cruise, though, there are some bored engineers along waiting for their particular equipment cabinet to fail, which, believe it or not happens sometimes and pity the engineer who cannot get it going again right away.


57 posted on 11/15/2006 3:15:26 PM PST by RightWhale (RTRA DLQS GSCW)
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To: sionnsar; Peanut Gallery

Geezer Tech ping


58 posted on 11/15/2006 3:17:10 PM PST by Professional Engineer (Speel check? What for? It'll just become part of the FReeper lexicon.)
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To: blam
Yes, I've heard about the Ainu for years. I believe I saw that article when it was posted.
59 posted on 11/15/2006 3:19:08 PM PST by SoCal Pubbie
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To: johnny7
"I dry shave with a buck knife when camping..."

I sand blast daily. It's the only way I can get any sensation from my habanero aftershave.

60 posted on 11/15/2006 3:21:29 PM PST by Joe 6-pack (You cannot live forever, so live a life that will never be forgotten.)
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