Posted on 11/12/2006 10:23:21 PM PST by quesney
That baffles me. Why would the Chinese want us to know they had this capability ?
There's no real sound strategic or tactical reason for a Chinese submarine skipper to "unexepectedly" surface near a U.S. carrier group. Perhaps the sub detected unexpected opening of outer doors of an LA or Seawolf within a nautical mile or two, simultaneous sono-buoys activating all around it, and the SSN suddenly going to flank speed directly at it, that the skipper thought it best to take any incoming Mk-48's on the surface rather than submerged at 400'.
SinoDefence.com: TYPE 039 SONG CLASS DIESEL-ELECTRIC SUBMARINE
The submarine is equipped with six bow 533mm torpedo tubes, which are said to be capable of firing the YJ-8 series anti-ship cruise missiles as well as the indigenous Yu-4 (SAET-60) and Yu-1 torpedoes. The submarine carries 18 torpedoes, with 6 in the launch tubes and 12 on the weapon racks. Alternatively the submarine can carry 24~36 mines.
The Type 039 is said to be capable of firing YJ-8 active radar-homing anti-ship missiles from its torpedo tubes while submerged. The missile flies at a speed of Mach 0.9 over a distance of 40~80km to deliver a 165kg high explosive warhead.
GlobalSecurity.org: Song S20 Class submarine
The Type 039 Wuhan C- class submarines, also referred to as the S20 Song-class, is China’s most modern indigenously built diesel attack submarine.
The SONG is China's first new-design, conventionally powered submarine. The SONG is a blend of Chinese and Western technology and has several key features that point to a major shift in diesel submarine design philosophy. It is the first Chinese submarine to have a skewed propeller. The SONG also is the first Chinese submarine designed to carry the developmental YJ-82, China's first encapsulated ASCM capable of launching from a submerged submarine. SONGs are probably fitted with flank-array sonars of French design. Chinese diesel submarines are fitted with German MTU diesel engines.
Overall, their shape is like that of Western submarines and their technology is equivalent to the international level of the early 1980s. It also reportedly incorporates technologies acquired from Russia, as well as from Western countries. China is believed to have good access to a wide variety of foreign sonars, to include passive ranging sonars, flank array sonars, variable-depth sonars, as well as helicopters equipped with dipping sonars. Incorporating a German propulsion system and advanced hydrodynamic design, the Song-class is said to be as quiet as the American Los Angles nuclear submarines. But its overall performance is constrained by the use of 1980s technology, and the fact that the PLAN purchased the Russian Kilo-class submarines suggests that there are problems with the Song-class.
Intended to replace the aging Ming-class submarines, the first Song-class submarine was launched on 25 May 1994 and started sea trials in August 1995. but did not become operational until 1998. The improved variant deleted the stepped conning tower of the first unit, resulting in an appearance like that of the French Agosta-90B. A coating of anechoic tiles is believed to have been added to reduce the acoustic signature while submerged. There is unconfirmed speculaiton that future units might be fitted with an AIP system which may have been tested onboard a Ming class SS.
According to some reports, two units were in afloat as of 1997, and two or three additional units under construction, though subsequent reports confirmed that only one unit was actually active by 1999. Additional construction of the improved variant was reportedly planned at two per year from 1998 with as many as nine additional improved units contemplated. This program was apparently slowed in favor of Russian-built submarines and continued production of the Ming-class. Other sources suggested that the class would be cancelled in favor of further purchases of Russian boats, given the unsatisfactory performance of the first unit of the class.
As of late 2004 there were probably at least five Songs completed, with eight or more under construction. The year 2004 was a landmark for the Song, with two vessels launching at the Wuchang shipyard, and, for the first time, two more launched at Shanghai's Jiangnan shipyard. By early 2005 there were at least 10 Songs either in commission, on sea trials, or in the final stages of being fitted out, with seven of these submarines reportedly built since 2003.
NOTE: The ostensible purpose of the USCC is to monitor, investigate, and submit to congress an annual report on the national security implications of the bilateral trade and economic relationship between the United States and the People’s Republic of China, and to provide recommendations, where appropriate, to Congress for legislative and administrative action.The 2002 DoD report to Congress on Chinese military modernization supports the idea that the Chinese are pursuing AIP, stating, "A new advanced version of the Song-class conventional submarine is expected to incorporate advanced AIP." The same report details other Song innovations: a skewed seven-blade propeller, submerged ASCM launch capability, flank array sonar of French design, and German diesel engines.[37] The PLAN intends the Song to be a modern replacement for its Mings and Romeos as well as a capable peer to its imported Kilos. Some disagree. Preliminary reports on the May 2002 Kilo sale projected that the purchase might signify the death knell for the Song program.[38] Indeed, the five years that marked the interval between launches of the first two Songs did suggest profound engineering and design troubles. But the completion of the second Song in 2001, and a third Song in 2002, with continued design improvements from their predecessors, the most obvious of which is the removal of the notch in the leading edge of the sail, suggest instead that the program is going forward in tandem with the Kilo purchase.Public Law 109-108 directs the Commission to focus its work and study on the following eight areas: proliferation practices, economic transfers, energy, U.S. capital markets, regional economic and security impacts, U.S.-China bilateral programs, WTO compliance, and the implications of restrictions on speech and access to information in the People’s Republic of China.
The new sail on the Song is a matter of some misunderstanding. One analyst wrote in Jane's International Defense Review, "Starting with the third vessel, the Song (Type 039) submarine is very close to the French Agosta 90B in external shape. The height of the sail has been lowered in order to increase stability underwater.”[39] It is apparent, however that the sail was not lowered. Instead, the notch on the forward half of the sail was covered up by extending the top edge of the sail forward. This becomes obvious after a close examination of photos of the Song before and after the correction. Fortunately, several unclassified photos include human figures enabling relatively accurate (if unsophisticated) calculations regarding the height of the sail. Design considerations bolster the argument that the Song's sail height was not lowered.[40] The "smoothing" of the sail would doubtless make the flow of water around it much quieter. Thus, the speculation that the Song was unstable underwater -- the supposed rationale for "lowering" the sail -- is also suspect. To be sure, the five year gap in between hulls one and two is indicative of some serious problems. But these problems may well be less significant than early Western appraisals suggested.[41]
If this submarine is better than originally estimated, then it should not be surprising that multiple sources report that several more of these vessels are being built.[42] According to Rear Adm. Eric P. McVadon, (U.S. Navy, ret.), an authority on the Chinese navy, the Song has entered serial production.[43] Another analyst even states that as many as ten Songs may be under construction, in two different shipyards.[44] Considerable sunk costs in the Song program will certainly also propel this program forward. China's continuing acquisition of Songs, while simultaneously purchasing Kilos, does suggest that the PLA submarine force is in the midst of a major near-term buildup.
No, S3 Vikings. They are going the way of the Tomcats.
Check out the phrase "assassin's mace" under google, or some other search engine.
I wonder how many Chinese are studying here? I live near CMU, and everyday I see more anad more new Chinese faces. I shudder to think how the Dems will react when China is at or near military equality with us.
Meanwhile, the Navy has been cutting back on ASW spending. Smart, real smart.
People should keep in mind that:
1) Bill Gertz doesn't know much or understand much about things military
2) He's repeatedly been demonstrated to be full of crap
Wishfull Thinking ,if you read Gertzs book this should come as no surprise since the Chinese have been stealing classified submarine data for years .
Actually I should not even say steal because since we did not classify the information to make it easier for manufacturers to bid on specs the Chinese spies just walked off with it. So I doubt we knew they were there,this is just a heads up on the disasters to come
Have you read any of Gertz's books?
.......make that a double order of kung pow chicken and go light on the M.S.G. please......
Don't forget the P-3's...
Your posted info mentions design influences from the French Agosta 90B design,which has been sold to only one nation for license building.That nation also happens to be China's oldest strategic ally after North Korea.Don't know about the level of active/passive French involvement,but this could be bad esp if their AIP system is passed onto the PRC.It will be a big force multiplier for the PRC.
The Yuan class in most probability from available sources appears to be version of the Kilo which is a more complex design than the Song class.It makes sense China to aim at having 2 classes of D/E subs in the longterm.One entirely homebuilt with Western & local tech & another derived from Russian help.
I am not posting much any more but thought you might find this interesting.
Have you checked their passports? Could be that many of them are Americans.
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