Posted on 11/10/2006 1:22:09 PM PST by madprof98
Haggard was willingly seduced by Satan. He was in sin before he started fooling around with prostitutes and drugs. He was seduced by the favors of the world. Satan just called in the bill.
Someone asked me if this could cause people to leave that church. I said I sure hoped so. These moments are the times when the sheep are separated from the goats.
read later
Ready to cast the first stone, I see.
I'm not. I've got enough sins of my own to worry about, before I go around condemning Haggard.
In one family that I know of, there is a third cousin, a second cousin, a cousin, and a parent who are either gay or bisexual. And none of these people are closely connected... they may have seen each other once every seven years or so at family gatherings.
I don't know what explains the high numbers in this group. And conversely I do know of other families where there are no gay family members.
I think all statistics should be set aside for now, because nothing seems to be conclusive.
The problem is that Ted chose the East
Gen 13:10 And Lot lifted up his eyes and saw all the circuit of Jordan, that it was all well watered (before Jehovah destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah,) like the garden of Jehovah, like the land of Egypt as you come to Zoar.
Gen 13:11 And Lot chose all the circuit of Jordan for himself. And Lot journeyed east; and they separated themselves from one another.
Noble but not Biblical when it comes to church leaders. we are supposed to test them and reject them.
1Jo 4:5 GNB
(5) Those false prophets speak about matters of the world, and the world listens to them because they belong to the world.
1Ti 1:3 GNB
(3) I want you to stay in Ephesus, just as I urged you when I was on my way to Macedonia. Some people there are teaching false doctrines, and you must order them to stop.
He's bleeding -- throw another rock!
FWIW, in terms of sexuality, Haggard was teaching true doctrine, not false, his personal sins on the matter notwithstanding.
Should he have been removed? Of course. But you're condemning him beyond that, and it's not your job.
The problem is that you are arrogating the keys to Hell and death to yourself, which you must know our Lord retained. I am prepared to forgive Ted Haggard the moment he asks for it (I think he already has, actually, and has made a pretty full and very public confession). What more he should do I do not know, but I ask that you consider him a fallen human, ergo, just about the same kind of creature you are yourself and I am myself. I do not throw stones here, nor make any allusion, so no one should draw any. We are each and every one capable of sin, and in extremity, great sin. We cannot know what will be the besetting sin that trips us up. All we really know is that our Lord gave His life on the Cross as an oblation for the sins He knew and knows we commit. He loves us anyway and He ordered us to love one another as He loves us.
Please do so, Appy.
God bless.
My guess is that an even larger percentage know someone who is an alcoholic. The difference is that the alcoholic goes to AA to try to stay straight.
This is a self-serving illogicality that is not likely to convince anyone not captive to the gay ideology. I expect most people will continue to hold with the maxim to hate the sin and love the sinner.
That's really tricky. If he were caught with a woman we might hate the sin and love the sinner, but wouldn't call him a good husband and father.
Nothing like a quick dose of Cheap Grace. Instead of calling him into account and making him responsible for his actions, we just throw out a quick forgive to someone who never hurt us in the first place. Imagine a friend coming to you and saying "I've done somethingreally bad and..." and you blurt "Whatever. It doesn't matter. I forgive you. Bye". We have started confusing "I don't care" with "I forgive"
The reason why Ted is in so much trouble is because we are too quick to brush off sin in our leaders. We aren't doing them any favors.
Obviously not. A good tree cannot produce bad fruit.
Pardon my noticing, but isn't he publicly disgraced, fired from his VERY lucrative preaching post and basically consigned to pervert hell in the minds of most irreligious Americans?
That sounds pretty harsh on any standard, unless you're intending to move to corporal punishment, just to make sure he doesn't miss the point.
Sorry. To assert Cheap Grace, you have to be assuming I'm saying he can have his ministry back, just like that. I'm not and I don't. And he would be forgiven, the sin would not be forgotten.
There's the distinction.
But Father Neuhaus's point is not that the public should forgive this guy for sinning against God and his family. The point is that gay activists have been chanting "Haggard = Bad Homosexual, McGreevy = Good Homosexual" because the former Governor, unlike the preacher, claimed (a) he was only following his nature and (b) thereby justified such behavior for himself and for others. To the extent anyone believes this madness, our society is the worse for it.
Saint Paul's letters are bad, then? After all, you can read what he said in Romans 7....
You might consider checking your eyes for planks, friend.
First Things' blog, like the journal itself, is always worth reading.
Yeah, perhaps that was the problem. Lucrative preaching job should be an oxymoron. You shouldn't get rich selling the work of the Holy Spirit. How many other lucrative preaching positions are secretly in trouble? How many of them will be relieved when they see the quick cheap grace extended to Haggard?
Haggard never did anything to me so I don't need to forgive him. But we need to raise up some Nathan's to keep these leaders in line. Too many of them are shearing the sheep. Haggard sold one doctrine and demonstrated another. What is an unSaved man doing selling Salvation?
Paul was unSaved in your eyes?
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