Underwriters Labs raises questions about E85 pumps (Problems wth ethanol?)

Minneapolis StarTribune (aka The Red Star) ^ | 10/27/06 | Alexei Barrionuevo - NY Times

[MplsSteve]

The farm-produced fuel that is supposed to help wean the United States from its oil addiction is under scrutiny for its potentially corrosive qualities.

E85, a blend of 85 percent corn-based ethanol and 15 percent gasoline, could be eating away at metal and plastic parts in gas station pumps, Underwriters Laboratories, the private product-safety testing group, said this month.

BP, the British oil company, said Thursday that it would delay the expansion of E85 at its U.S. outlets until the laboratories certified an E85 dispensing system.

[Rakkasan1]

read the revealing article on ethanol in the most recent Motorcycle Consumer News.

[AnAmericanMother]

We had a '69 Torino at that time.

Never had any trouble with the carb.

[Beagle8U]

This was an 82. It had an electronic carb that had about a million little parts and gaskets. It couldn't even be rebuilt, it was fried.

[Eric in the Ozarks]

What do they say ?

[olinr]

"... Germans used a particular synthetic rubber that apparently was soluble in alcohol!"

A few years ago many cars were burning up on the freeways due to the "new blend" in gasoline (Los Angeles area). The gasoline was eating up the rubber fuel lines. Sounds like this is the same cause. Comments?

[AnAmericanMother]

Then that's the difference.

Ours was an old-fashioned mechanical model, 2bbl. I used to tune it myself, also replaced the starter and did a brake job on that old car in our driveway. Oil changes, new plugs and points, etc. were just routine. I still have the axle stands and the old Champion spark plug bucket!

You sure can't work on 'em like you used to!

[AnAmericanMother]

I would imagine that any time you put a new additive in gasoline, you run the risk of having it attack rubber parts.

Although you'd think they'd test it first . . .

[curiosity]

Never again! I'll stick to putting the corn squeezing in MY tank, not whatever I'm driving.

I agree 100%. Unfortunately, however, we don't have a choice. The corn lobby has managed to persuade congress to require 15% ethanol in our fuel.

[curiosity]

More proof that ethanol is garbage and a huge waste of taxpayer money.

End the subsidies. Make the corn lobby pay its own way. If it had to, the whole ethanol industry would collapse.

[Eric in the Ozarks]

That's exactly right. Your choice in the matter has been removed, unfortunately, by politicians and other do-gooders. Straight gasoline is almost impossible to find.

[curiosity]

There is a pretty large lobby out there built to crush Ethanol useage.

LOL. You've got it backwards. There's a huge lobby of corporate welfare recipients (i.e. corn growers and ethanol distillers) pushing ethanol. There is no major industry group against it, nor is there any major lobbying organization. The only people trying to crush it are smart consumers who are fed up with the higher costs and lower mileage ethanol is causing in their cars. Oh yeah, and there are a couple intrepid scientists who are funding their anti-ethanol research out of their own pockets.

The oil companies are not fighting it. Neither are the car companies. Both groups are trying to cash in on some of the subsidies that are being made available.

[Fighting Irish]

Ok then ....all fine here...under control. Going back to sleep now

[Pete from Shawnee Mission]

"could be eating away at metal and plastic parts in gas station pumps"

Gee! They use metal and plastic in cars too, don't they?

[Rakkasan1]

best to avoid it.

[curiosity]

best to avoid it.

Yeah, only trouble is, it's impossible, thanks to the ethanol mandates congress put in at the behest of the corn lobby.

[Eric in the Ozarks]

No kiddin. I understand Minnesota has mandated a 20 percent blend of ethanol for all gasoline, beginning in 2008 or 2010.

[Constitution Day]

This has been a HUGE deal in the petroleum equipment industry (which I work in).

I have a copy of the UL letter to our company which I can post here, if you're interested.

[Constitution Day]

Any type of porous metal (zinc, aluminum, etc) will suffer corrosion when exposed to E85 ethanol.
The solution is to plate the metal. Electroless nickel plating is what our company uses on machined aluminum castings.

Similarly, E85 attacks rubber parts so specialized synthetic rubber compounds must be used for o-rings, gaskets, etc.

[Constitution Day]

Here is the UL letter I referenced in #37. See you all Monday!

---

From: UL.Notification@us.ul.com
Sent: Thursday, October 05, 2006 2:13 PM
To: undisclosed-recipients
Subject: Important Notice on UL Certification of Dispenser Components for use with E-85

Dear Valued Customer:

Effective immediately, Underwriters Laboratories Inc. is suspending authorization to use UL Markings (Listing or Recognition) on components for fuel dispensing devices that specifically reference compatibility with alcohol blended fuels that contain greater than 15% alcohol (i.e. ethanol, methanol or other alcohols). Dispenser components as they relate to use with traditional fuel blends (i.e., blended fuels containing 15% or less alcohols) are unaffected. In all cases, acceptability of fuel dispensers for using alcohol-blended fuels containing greater than 15% alcohol (e.g., E-85) remains at the discretion of the Authority Having Jurisdiction.

Research indicates that the presence of high concentrations of Ethanol or other alcohols within blended fuels makes these fuels significantly more corrosive. This may result in the fuel chemically attacking the materials used in fuel dispenser components, and may ultimately degrade the dispenser’s ability to contain the fuel. While UL has no evidence of field issues related to this application, we are suspending authorization to use the UL Mark on components used in dispensing devices that will dispense any alcohol blended fuels containing over 15% alcohol until updated certification requirements are established and the effected components have been found to comply with them.

Our engineers are actively reviewing current E-85 research and meeting with industry and government experts to gather the information required to draft the revised certification requirements. UL anticipates that testing of E-85 dispenser components will commence immediately following publication of UL's E-85 certification requirements, as they pertain to the use of these higher alcohol blended fuels on a dispenser system. We remain committed to undertaking in an expeditious manner the thorough and broad based effort necessary to develop the appropriate requirements that will adequately address E-85 compatibility.

UL staff will be attending the PEI show in Las Vegas from October 9-11, 2006 and will be available to address any of your questions. We look forward to working with you in our effort to develop dispenser and dispenser component requirements for the use of Ethanol based fuels.

Best regards,

Kerry McManama
General Manager
Hazardous Locations and Gas & Oil
(phone number redacted)

[Pete from Shawnee Mission]

Thanks! I don't think E85 is too hard to avoid right now. I made long distance trips and it seems that all the gasoline in most of the places I went contained at least 10% ethanol. That coupled with the lower gas mileage of ethanol mean I probably won't use it too often. I probably will use the 10% now and then during the winter to get rid of any water in the tank.