Scientists Find Lamprey A 'Living Fossil': 360 Million-year-old Fish Hasn't Evolved Much

Science Daily.com ^ | October 26, 2006 | University of Chicago Medical Center

[muir_redwoods]

P"Yes, but since the world was created 5,000 years ago, you would not expect that it's evolved much."

Actuaally 6004 years just last Tuesday at 9:00 AM

Or so I'm told...:)

[Boxen]

Do not click here if you have a mortal fear of lampreys.

[muir_redwoods]

"Most people would have seen that my thoughts were very clear."

Uhhh, no

[mutley]

"Only a few of an organisms genes specify its shape. Most of the genes control the detailed composition of proteins. There could have been wholesale changes at the cellular level, but you'd never know it from the fossil record."

I don't disagree with that. I seem to tread a road less traveled in this type of thread. To me, there are aspects of the TOE that are undeniable if being intellectually honest with one's self, but there are other aspects, that I think are indeed suspicious.

"The only really surprising result from this discovery is that an ecological niche has remained so stable for 360,000,000 years."

That is shocking to me. And I have to try and surmise, that there is something wrong with this picture.

[taxesareforever]

Then you must not be included in "most".

[muir_redwoods]

You failed to explain the logical leap you made from a lamprey, acted on by almost no outside pressure to adapt and evolve, to a human, probably the species subject to the most stresses and outside forces to adapt and evolve.

[xhrist]

we must continue to refine this theory as new data emerges.

yea..never admit its a hypothesis..

"A hypothesis is a suggested explanation of a phenomenon or reasoned proposal suggesting a possible correlation between multiple phenomena. " A theory is a proposed description, explanation, or model of the manner of interaction of a set of natural phenomena, capable of predicting future occurrences or observations of the same kind, and capable of being tested through experiment or otherwise falsified through empirical observation"

[mutley]

"almost no outside pressure to adapt and evolve"

THAT...is one HUGE assumption! And spanning 360,000,000 years! Am I to just take your word on that? LOL

[Stultis]

I thought all vertebrates by definition had back bones.

No. Not necessarily bones. They all have a vertebral column, which is not necessarily (and isn't) bony in the most primitive vertebrates.

The largest subgroup within the vertebrates is the craniata, which are animals with a skull. The lamprey is the most primitive of the craniates, with the least developed (and cartiliginous rather than bony) vetrebral column. The only more primitive vertebrate is the hagfish, which (IIRC) is the only living vertebrate that is NOT also a member of craniata. It has cartiliginous plates in it's head, like the lamprey, but unlike the lamprey it lacks a true braincase.

Back to the vertebral column, here's a diagram and discussion I found at The Tree of Life:

Characteristics

The Vertebrata have all the characteristics of the Craniata but share, in addition, a number of unique characteristics which do not occur in hagfishes (Hyperotreti). These characteristics are:

• Metamerically arranged endoskeletal elements flanking the spinal cord. There are primitively two pairs of such elements in each metamere and on each side: the interdorsals and basidorsals. In the gnathostomes, there are two additional pairs ventrally to the notochord: the interventrals and basiventrals. These elements are called arcualia and can fuse to a notochordal calcification, the centrum. The ensemble of the arcualia + centrum is the vertebra, and the ensemble of the vertebrae is the vertebral column.

  ---

  

  The vertebrates are characterized by a vertebral column; that is, a variable number of endoskeletal elements aligned along the notochord (green) and flanking the spinal cord (yellow). In lampreys (top), the vertebral elements are only the basidorsal (red) and the interdorsals (blue). In the gnathostomes, there are in addition ventral elements, the basiventrals (purple) and interventrals (orange), and the notochord may calcify into centra (pink). (After Janvier 1996).

[muir_redwoods]

"Am I to just take your word on that? LOL"

Yes.

It's a well adapted, parasite that feeds on blood. As long as there are other creatures with blood (and no hands with which to remove it), the lamprey will eat. Any population of lampreys that were acted on by significant forces may well have evolved into something else but the basic design of the lamprey and it's niche is well protected. So long as creatures with blood live in the sea.

[muawiyah]

In contrast to the pitifully few lampray species, mosquitos, also blood suckers, have proliferated as few other animals ever have.

They are everywhere!

Admit it, the lampray is the perfect animal ~ untouched by the forces of Natural Selection ~ beyond mere statistics.

[mutley]

"So long as creatures with blood live in the sea."

I'm sorry, but you should have said, so long as creatures exist with skin, or scales, or something else, have existed which the lamprey's blood sucking equipment can access, have lived in the sea. Any type of statement like this which proposes to cover 360,000,000 years of evolution, is quite suspicious to me.

[balch3]

exactly, although it's more like 6000.

[taxesareforever]

You failed to explain the logical leap you made from a lamprey, acted on by almost no outside pressure to adapt and evolve, to a human,

Ah, did you read my post correctly? I don't believe in evolution so why would I even suggest that there was a "leap from lamprey to humans"?

[Dimensio]

You failed to explain the logical leap you made from a lamprey, acted on by almost no outside pressure to adapt and evolve, to a human, probably the species subject to the most stresses and outside forces to adapt and evolve.

If I may speculate, I believe that the failure is a direct result of there being absolutely no logical basis for taxesareforever's claim.

[ml1954]

'Genesis = Science Textbook' ping.

[fish hawk]

So the eel hasn't changed in 360 million years but apes turned into men. Boy, evolution sure is fickle. Or else its all bull crap.

[Stultis]

In contrast to the pitifully few lampray species, mosquitos, also blood suckers, have proliferated as few other animals ever have.

It appears by the most common classification schemes there are about 40 species of lamprey distributed among 9 or 10 genera and 3 subfamilies, lampreys themselves collectively constituting a family. This makes lampreys about as diverse as horses (that is including horses, zebras, donkeys, asses, etc). I wouldn't call that "pitifully few" species.

Yes, there are far more species of mosquitoes. But then, as you probably already know, insects in general are far, far, far more diverse in numbers of species than animals, and the distinction would be just about as striking in the case of any comparable analogy between animal and insect.

lampray is the perfect animal ~ untouched by the forces of Natural Selection ~ beyond mere statistics

I'm no expert on the critters, but at least at first blush I don't think I'd call all of the variation in living lamprey species "mere statistics". I think the differences in adaptation between living life-long in fresh water, versus a life cycle transitioning from fresh water to the ocean and back to fresh water, and even among the sea going lampreys some that are merely coastal versus others that appear to range across vast distances, and a range of (adult) feeding habits from pure parasite to pure predator, are at least a little bit "beyond mere statistics".