Islam: A religion for Losers

http://www.freerepublic.com/ ^ | 10-21-2006 | Me

[Motherhood IS a career]

I believe there is a fundamental difference between encouraging someone to take responsibility and authorizing them to take retribution.

Yes. We send missionaries to preach and educate and to convert through reason and spiritual motivation; they behead people, and send homicide bombers to convert en masse with the sword.

[x]

Both Christianity and Islam offer something hopeful for those with less, who some might characterize was 'losers.'

But Christianity and Islam offer different moral codes, rituals, conducts. They are clearly not the same, and they clearly take their followers to different places.

I think both religions have aspects that appeal to what most people would call 'losers.' That's not a bad thing, in itself. And I wouldn't characterize Christianity as a religion exclusively or largely for losers.

Good post. That's sort of what I was getting at but couldn't express.

[John Lenin]

[x]

I don't think Ted Turner's a good example of a deep thinker either. He is an example of what can happen to people when they think too much in terms of winners and losers.

I agree that radical Islam isn't a way to get what people want or need, and that Christianity and Islam are very different religions.

The thing is, though, that religions, especially Western monotheistic religions, don't focus on getting what you want but on conforming to some divine will.

I think that the "Muslims are losers" argument 1) isn't going to convince anybody who's decided to become a Muslim and 2) may have limited appeal for Christians who aren't focused on worldly success either.

[tcostell]

So you too are saying that Christianity and Islam are the same because they are both religions? You're saying that they both must be equivalent because they offer an externally defined objective moral code? And if that isn't it... maybe you could elaborate for me on what way they are similar to you?

I think I've been pretty clear about my view on the whole thing and I don't think either of your arguments negates it.

[x]

No, I am saying that they are both religions, both believe in a God and both try to conform to his will. Just what God wants is different in Islam from in Christianity, as it's different in Judaism. There may be more overlap between the three religions than you're apparently willing to concede, but they aren't identical.

I'm not saying all religions are the same. I'm just saying that this whole "winners vs. losers" thing doesn't have much appeal for me, and that plenty of religious people would probably feel the same way.

[tcostell]

The thing is, though, that religions, especially Western monotheistic religions, don't focus on getting what you want but on conforming to some divine will.

I don't think you can write a sentence like this unless you completely misunderstand the role of religion in a society. No disrespect intended, but maybe you had better go read up a bit before you try to carry this argument any further.

[tcostell]

You know... this sort of makes my point. Look at how easy it is for someone like him to think in terms of a label like that?

This shows me that I have successfully found a semantic which will "speak to liberals" about Islam.

[HitmanLV]

I don't read this as an endorsement against material achievement or as something that highlights the virtues of poverty v. wealth. It seems to me that Jesus was trying to say that you can't buy your way into heaven.

That's interesting, my interpretation of that line in scripture is a bit different. I always considered it to be mostly a matter-of-fact observation: in other words, as a matter of fact, it's easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. In other words, a lot of rich people have placed an undue priority on getting wealthy, at the expense of their spiritual development.

So I don't think it means being rich and getting into heaven is impossible. It's mostly a warning that making wealth the most important thing often (but not necessarily) comes at the expense of spiritual matters.

[HitmanLV]

Thanks.

[bvw]

Didn't *wait* til some possible future moment to read this most excellent essay, which sets things down pretty dang well, thank you!

I would advise all who hobble along marking this and that for some future read to hurry back and read this NOW.

[Motherhood IS a career]

Well then you agree with me that it's not an endorsement against material achievement or wealth in an of itself, but rather a warning that a camel has a better chance of getting through the eye of a needle than someone who would TRADE his soul for riches. And you DO agree that virtue and wealth are not mutually exclusive. AND that the key point in that section of Scripture is that "With God all things are possible" rather than wealth being some sort of automatic barrier from heaven.

In either case, the writing is not about Christianity and its appeals, but about islam and its appeal to people of a certain mindset. The way I see it, people with a rather large chip on their shoulder and a compulsion to blame others for their misery and/or "get even" are good candidates for islam, as opposed to any other religion. For one thing, islam actually condones violence to non-muslims.

I also don't think that success, as in "winners v. losers" is all about financial success. It is about success in life, and that is something I would measure in terms of happiness and joy for living. Again, this is just my perception, but Christians to me seem like a generally joyful lot, whereas the only joy I've ever seen among muslims was the dancing and celebrating they did in the streets around the world upon hearing that the World Trade Center towers had fallen and thousands were dead.

[bvw]

If you have gotten a death threat for this essay, please inform the FBI. Do it for ALL of us who post and wish to live free.

[cookcounty]

I have muslim friends, but what bugs me about Islam, is that it makes some people (a minority, but a significant minority) totally nuts, and makes the rest of them week as water. The crazies take over, while the rest os the islamic world surrenders to a sort of "Dhimmitude" of their own, whereby the nastiest people rise to the top by intimidation and violence.

[HitmanLV]

Yes, I think so. And your observations about Islam are accurate, I agree with them 100%.

I was just pointing out that if someone goes to the trouble of noting what Islam brings to the table for losers, it's only fair to point out that Christianity brings a lot to the table for losers, too.

[tcostell]

Well since it's come up, let me take this chance to say that I have a lot of Muslim friends too. I'm not calling every Muslim a loser, I'm talking about the nature of the faith and the kind of decision making that the muslim world rewards. If your friends, like mine, have chosen some moderate view that lets them embrace the faith of their family and interpret it in a way that still lets them work in the western world, then there are MANY in Islam who would quickly accuse them of some sort of heresy. It's the nature of Islam to punish them for using reason and modifying their behavior in ways that make them more prone to success.

They are "weak as water" as you say because they know that the things they do that make it possible to assimilate in the west, under the doctrine of their faith makes them subject to criticism.

And how anxious would you be to put yourself up for criticism when you know that so much of the conflict resolution of Islam is done by removing someone's head.

(that's a great phrase by the way... I m afraid I'm going to have to steal it for later use.)

[tcostell]

Well no ... no death threats yet... but it's still early so I suppose there is still time.

[bvw]

Glad to hear it. I misread your post, btw. Read it to say that you had received a death threat, and by that knew you had hit the mark. Well, you hit the mark -- death threat or not.

[Motherhood IS a career]

I see your point. Christianity does bring a lot to the table for losers (or shall we say the unhappy, the miserable, the lonely, etc.) But Christianity takes that misery and turns it into something positive and more meaningful, and enables the miserable to find joy.

Islam, on the other hand, seems to only fuel the misery and hatred, and advocates violence against those who aren't equally miserable.

This is just my perception, but Christianity seems to be full of positive energy (not excuses or blame) and islam is quite the opposite.

[HitmanLV]

This is just my perception, but Christianity seems to be full of positive energy (not excuses or blame) and islam is quite the opposite.

I think that is exactly right and one of the big differences in worldview between Christians and Muslims. I wish I had said it as succinctly as you just did. Thanks!