Posted on 10/11/2006 4:15:03 AM PDT by Renfield
Davids Medienkritik discovered deep condescension toward America from a German executive whose company makes most of its money here. Porsche CEO Wendelin Wiedeking defends the German “social model” of capitalism, and implies that we Americans are barely out of the backwoods with our rifles.
Europe’s culture is decidedly older than that of the USA. The Fuggers were doing business, while hunting was still the order of the day in America. Right now 37 million people in the USA live below the poverty line. The gulf between poor and rich has widened brutally. Do we want to have a situation like that in Europe and particularly in Germany?
Why would anyone buy an expensive car from a company whose head looks down on him?
I wonder what Herr Wiedeking has to say about the Japanese after a beers?
I also worked for more than 20 years with the poor.
By far, the biggest problem facing the poor in the US today is:
Obesity.
I wish you guys would kick the crap out of the muzzies who refuse to integrate into Germany.
You would get 99.9% support for it on FR. And I would be one of those supporters.
Of course, we are headed for trouble with our illegals here in the USA. We real patriots will probably be treated like the Serbs, when we finally fight back to rid the country of those illegals who would destroy our culture.
In 20 years, California will probably vow for its independence as part of the new nation of AZTLAN. Many folks don't think it will happen; however, when most of the population is illegal Mexican or of illegal heritage it will be only human nature to want to split from us "evil blue-eyed devils"
It's also true that Americans were indeed stalking game in the wooded mountains of Kan-Tuck-Kee when Herr Wiedeking's ancestors wore embroidered silks, powdered their wigs and faces, and spilled wine on each other's mistresses in the salon and drawing rooms while losing fortunes to one another at the Faro table.
Sure, Dr. Wiedeking, I guess life was grand in old Stuttgart just as long as you were part of the landed aristocracy and not a poor field serf impressed into the Frederick II's brutal Prussian army and getting fed to the guns in the Hohenzollern dynasty's various wars. Gee, I wonder where the poverty line was in old Germany back when men either had tens of thousands of gold coins or not enough bread for their miserable family.
I do believe I'd rather have been running through the forests of Appalachia dressed in buckskins and a coonskin cap building respect with Indians and conquering the new American frontier. Thank God that my ancestors decided the same.
After all these centuries, the European elites still don't understand that they're the primary reason our ancestors emigrated to the New World.
But of course there's anti-Americanism in Germany, there is also anti-Europeanism in the USA. Of course all of this anti is just a reaction to the other side feeling so high and mighty over a few things bla bla bla. Essentially that whole thing bores me to death. But I'll admit that using anti-Americanism for political goals over here is worth reporting. But this is just no A-A if you read it in context, this is just something where people that are already pissed can find another reason if they try hard enough.
And from what I could find on the net, the German poverty line is at 930 euros per month, while the US poverty line is at 9650 dollars per year or about 805 dollars per month. If the numbers are correct, this would invalidate your claim that 1/3 of all Germans would be poor given the use of US measures.
If one judges a civilization by its fruits, I'll take representative democracy, jazz, baseball, real football, and genuine opportunity over tyranny, oompah, soccer and social and economic sclerosis.
geez. Porches are like a&&h*les. Everybody's got one.
That'S just not true. The elites of both sides of the Atlantic were looking down on each other long before 9/11.
However, like it or not, the Germans have an "Amerika Fetisch".
Yeah, but in a positive way as much as in a negative way. After all I'd rather be here than on a French or British board.
As to your great "Soziale Marktwirtschaft". You alone have over 11% who are unemployed! Near half of your Rentner are under the poverty line, yes- UNDER POVERTY line.
That's not correct. Only about 11% of the Rentner are under the poverty line. There are more pressing issues with cild poverty (about 15%) at the moment. And I'm aware that we also have many poor people, however these people generally have general services like for example free health care, and they are entiteled to government money longer than in the USA. These systems are deteriorating because since the reunification we cannot afford big parts of them anymore and have to lay them off. But I would say that the poor are still better off in Germany at the moment, at the expense of the rich.
Speaking of which[...]
As far as I know, the equivalent income, and thus the poverty line (normally 60% of EI) are always netto. I won't go through what's cheaper and what's more expensive in Germany and the US, so I'll just say you might have a point there, especially with the Gas of course.
Anyway, that still doesn't change my opinion that the Wiedeking comment is not anti-American.
http://www.move.com/searchresults.aspx?styp=rent&ct=dallas&st=TX&zp=&mnpr=&mxpr=10&mnbed=&mnbath=&terms=&dist=0<yp=B&poe=move
For under $500 a month in a 'city' I can rent an apartment with a built in kitchen (Not like in Germany where you have to buy your own kitchen in a rental apartment), you have swimming pools, tennis courts, security, two parking spots and the place even is nice and in a city! No, it's not relative. Everything from a TV to no GEZ, to the food you eat or the gas in a car, even the car itself costs less in the US. There is a reason why Germans come back from vacation with a suitcase full of Levi. In order to get prices like in Germany you have to go to a place like New York City, literally.
In Germany the retirements have sunken while inflation has increased significantly since the implementation of the Euro. True inflation is FAR higher than the gold plated BS inflation that is officially stated.
The problem with inflation calculations is that they take into account certain basket items which are not common purchases. For example, I seldom buy a new wash machine or car, but buy food, and have to get to work and home every day. When switching over to the Euro, many products that formerly cost the consumer 3.00DM today cost 3.00 Euro. Example, order a Soda in a restaurant. So while the stated inflation rate is quoted as ‘X’ percent the true rate is far higher. When the official ‘statistik’ states 9.5% of those over 60 are at or bellow poverty the situation is in reality much much more grim since how things are computed have changed in the last years.
Another example of how such games are played: Under the years of Schroeder and his great socio-economy they excluded those working in 1 Euro jobs and in retraining programs that had no real jobs from the Unemployment statistic. So while the unemployment is in reality over 13% the government reports much more favorable and lower rates.
Germany today is economically bad off. No matter how you try to pretend it away and unfortunately all you have is more of the same. The only answer the political establishment can come up with is more VAT tax (Mehrwertsteuer), a new 1% tax on the rich, and an additional road usage tax. Will this bring anything? No. It will hurt you even more!
All you have is ‘Durchhalte-Parolen’ of the left. As I told someone else here, the political left ideology in Germany today is not to far different that the NAZI’s in 1945 as Russian troops were stomping over Berlin and US troops through Koeln, all awhile the German radio was screaming “Wir gewinnen den Krieg!”. Those on the political left somehow have to paint the picture not so bad. So with high inflation, unemployment, no growth, rising crime, a breakdown in US/German relations, dropping real wages, loss of political influence in NATO and the UN, cracks in the EU, Schroeder was very happy to announce that Germany is export Weltmeister. Of course Der Spiegel blew that one all over their page since after all, Schroeder was their man.
What is a German with a socialist orientation to do when in Hong Kong, Singapore, the US etc etc etc, you have evidence that a free market works? Well, they do what they always do. They talk about how bad Margaret Thatcher was and the one poor kid in London somewhere that was deprived of whatever because of her horrible evil capitalist market policies which BTW turned their economy around and provided for real net growth in economic terms. The left has to do that, they don’t have any true arguments in economic theory or in practice. Ask any socialist to give one single example of a socialist economy that has worked over a long haul. So, all you get is ideological gibberish, negative reporting on how horrible it is in the US (But I’d rather live here, and I’ve lived in both), and other trash like how it’s some German cultural historical necessity or tied to preventing another totalitarian Hitler from coming to power because the sozial staat is a replacement for what was in the past and creates a harmony that is needed for social stability. I have heard all these bogus arguments, and in the end, they are just that, bogus. But nonetheless, the keep appearing repackaged. The sales pitch changes a little over time, but in the end, the BS arguments are all the same.
So, we’ll see how your economy takes off soon after the new and higher taxes kick in. Germany needs to rethink its economic policy altogether.
Sorry, but that car is the most ugliest thing I ever saw.
We'll see...we had this discussion before and this here was not about the economy for me. Anyway, basket calculation may have minor flaws but primarily includes the calculation to 'get through the month'. Government records, while indeed whitewashed by 1€ jobs and such, have been corrected half a year ago and now show a pretty accurate picture, as far as statistics are able to do such a thing. Not another discussion about the VAT please, I didn't like it before you even heard of it. We have a lot more than Durchhalteparolen. The primary threat to Germany is also a threat to the USA, by the way. You may think that your unqualified labor can compete with India/China etc, think again. For them working social democrat economies, take Sweden, Finland, Norway or Germany before the reunion.
Yea... if I had enough money to actually afford one then his comments might influence might purchasing decisions... until then....
Ummm, well we started sending troops into England in 42, and started the very costly air campaign into France, and first met the German's on the ground in Africa in 42, then on to Sicily & Italy in 43. And we had to do it by sending troops and materiel (in addition to the materiel we were sending to Britan and Russia) over thousands of miles of open ocean filled with German U-Boats. Oh, and then there was this other little skirmish going on over in the Pacific at the same time.
Germany wasn't the only country fighting a two front war.
Now if you want to talk about post D-Day troop replacements, yea, a lot of those young men were fresh and green. But a lot of the guys that hit the beach were already battle hardened in Africa, Sicily and Italy.
Did Stalingrad help to weaken the German war machine. Absolutely! A failed campaign by an arrogant German leader who over estimated his power, and under estimated ours.
Kinda like Porche's leader.
Well, this is speculation. I don´t think that the Nazi rocket sciene would have been that far. But that´s just my view, and I could be very well wrong. We´ll probably never find out.
As much the scientists from Nazi Germany were welcome, the treatment of former Nazis who were useful in the fight against the Commies wasn´t ok. Too many got away with their crimes - be it by the allies or the Federal Republic after 1955. Shameful part of our post-war history.
My favourite "what-if" scenario is, what would have been if Operation Walküre had been successful on July 20th 1944. What if Hitler had been killed and the SS- and Nazi-party-leaders had been jailed by these brave Wehrmacht officers and generals? There could have been an immediate release of political and religious prisoners, a ceasefire with the western allies and maybe a victory against Stalin. But that doesn´t lead us nowhere. Let´s fight our enemies of today, which are our common enemies!
Germany had a steady rise in unemployment actually since the early 70s, coincidentally shortly after many of the tax and social reforms came through.
Sweden as Finland are actually in trouble, in respect to their social programs, that's a known fact.
India is no long term threat. Your world picture is based on “someone must be held down so that others can be on top”. That’s not the way it works. That’s again the typical class warfare economic BS theories as Der Spiegel and the typical socialist bases all their views on. From the feminist, to third world African tin pot regime, minority groups, or to the liberal social engineer who wants to solve all social ills with Robin Hood tax laws, the argument here too is always the same.
It’s always a form of the conflict theory: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conflict_theory
To these people things are never the way they are for a reason; rather it’s always a ‘conspiracy’ where they are held back by others.
Imagine this, imagine India develops a huge market worth a trillion + and they in reality ‘consume’ your products as you do theirs. Do you realize that after WWII your Germany was basically in the same position? Industry moved to Germany because it was a cheap place to produce that had skilled labor. Did this in the long run make Europe weaker, poorer, or even hurt the US? No. And of course when its oneself that benefits it's OK in the eyes of these open minded caring people.
The “Der Spiegel” world view, which is a reflection of current German left thought, is nothing more than shallow thrash that goes against historical facts and modern economic theory. But the views expressed are popularistic and acceptable to the layperson. It is what the people want to hear, not what is. Like Al Jazier which reinforces the Middle Eastern Muslim and tells him what he wants to hear, not what is. From Iraq being about oil, or the views expressed on globalization, it’s a sounding board for leftist thought, which today sees a lot of manufacturing moving to other nations like India.
Reality- Wages in India are rising, as they do, offshoring to there will slow. In fact, India offshores to China which by their standards has become cheaper. But while offshoring in the long run slows down, their imports for manufactured goods and services will increase because the per capita income is growing and with it the ability to purchase these products. Besides, even with a large disparity in manufacturing costs, all industry does not run away for many reasons: Security policy, exchange rate risks, tariffs, cost of logistics...etc.
Furthermore, what you see today is a movement to what is called an 'information' society vs. a manufacturing society. Something the Left still has not understood. But since when does a socialist understand anything about economics? Like the Soviets, they are still trying to accrue industrial capacity as if that were the end all measure of wealth and economic potential. Factors like human capital, services, etc. fall completely to the wayside in their primitive world view. Like during the industrial revolution, where the socialist was still talking about 'Der Bauern-Staat' and painting pictures of the utopian agricultural society, they today cling to some industrial measure when the real focus is in the information age.
The German left, and in an economic sense even the German right thinks like a typical leftist. There are fears of globalization and inherently they try to implement ‘protectionist’ trade policies. That is in essence what you have been doing for years anyway subtly. But that won’t help either. Sticking your head in the sand seldom helps. Deal with, or break off like an inflexible tree.
China is a threat. But their threat is a long term security issue. India is not.
We may see a strong shift into new low wage countries. Last week China allowed Unions to operate there.
It will have an enormeous effect on their competitiveness
Man...this thread has gone longer than the Energizer bunny...
Some like HP and JP Morgan are moving their IT support for example 'back' to the US. But that, like low fuel prices at the pump is not newsworthy.
Furthermore there are many other factors here at work. Skill sets and available labor, security concerns, US national security policy, logistics, conversion rates, and tariffs are among some factors that are out there which are typically overlooked by the oversimplification of “all jobs will leave because of low wage countries”.
While some are leaving others are coming. GE for example opened a new plant in Germany not to long ago (Former DDR). Why didn't they build that wash machine manufacturing plant in Romania? A major US chip manufacturer built a plant in Germany as well, why not India? On the other hand, BMW and Mercedes built plants in the US some years ago. Why not Mexico? In fact, every Mercedes ML and BMW Z3 sold even in Germany is made in the USA.
Most of the media reporting on outsourcing and offshoring is one sided and dilapidated. It does not give a complete picture. Here’s another aspect overlooked by the MSM. Most of the manufacturing you are seeing offshored to low cost countries is simple mundane work in its skill set. Can a German or an American press a peddle on an assembly line any better than some guy in China? No, despite everyone’s belief that they are better than all others. What you’re seeing offshored to low cost destinations are the jobs monkey’s can do, primarily. You’re seeing jobs that require putting a long line of rivets in, or pressing on an actuator which sets in motion a hydraulic press to manufacture a part for a car door. You’re also seeing jobs move from Europe to the US and vice versa, but those are usually not for cost saving reasons related to low wages. A firm that is in IT might want to have a base of operation in Europe, India, and the US in order to follow the sun and allow for easy 24/7 coverage. As a client in Europe if you call at 2300 your support is coming from India and at 0300 from Europe. They also want to attract clientele in that market, not be as affected by currency fluctuations and and and. But the movement of jobs from high cost to low cost countries is mainly in the low end sector.
Germany in that respect is hit much harder than us. Not because we were not hit, but because the trend which has hit Germany in the last few years is something which has already been going on in the US for a longer time and has somewhat flattened off while in Germany it’s still in full swing. NAFTA ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_Free_Trade_Agreement ) went into affect in 1994 and our proximity to the far east (S. Korea, Japan, Singapore, Hong Kong etc- many of which by the way today are no longer low cost to produce countries and Japan in fact is our export partner number one! A perfect example of my point I tried to make to our German friend here.) made us feel this trend in offshoring much much earlier. Europe didn’t go over to the Euro until 1999 when they also harmonized many of their trade rules (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euro ) and now with even nations like Poland, Romania, Bulgaria, Slovenia, Czech Rep having open boarders you’re seeing a massive exodus of manufacturing to these nations. What happened here (US) years ago is now hitting them in other words. The same jobs that are 5 miles across the boarder in Mexico are the jobs Germany today is loosing to Romania.
But that’s just my opinion.
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