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Church to Fight IRS Demand for Documents
Breitbart.com ^ | Sep 21, 2006 | GILLIAN FLACCUS

Posted on 09/22/2006 5:36:35 AM PDT by Mrs. Don-o

A liberal church that has been threatened with the loss of its tax- exempt status over an anti-war sermon delivered just days before the 2004 presidential election said Thursday it will fight an IRS order to turn over documents on the matter. "We're going to put it in their court and in a court of law so that we can get an adjudication to some very fundamental issue here that we see as an intolerable infringement of rights," Bob Long, senior warden of All Saints Church, told The Associated Press.

He said the church's 26-member vestry voted unanimously to resist IRS demands for documents and an interview with the congregation's rector by the end of the month.

The church's action sets up a high-profile confrontation between the church and the IRS, which now must decide whether to ask for a hearing before a judge, who would then decide on the validity of the agency's demands.

IRS spokesman Terry Lemons would not comment specifically on the dispute but noted in a statement that the agency could take a church to court.

Religious leaders on the right and left have expressed fear that the dispute could make it more difficult for them to speak out on moral issues such as gay marriage and abortion during the midterm election campaign.

At a news conference Thursday, church officials were flanked by about 40 representatives of mosques, synagogues and other churches.

"We smell intimidation, it smells rotten, and we should not allow any aspect of intimidation to be directed to any member of our great country," said Maher Hathout, executive director of the Muslim Public Affairs Council.

Under federal tax law, church officials can legally discuss politics, but to retain tax-exempt status, they cannot endorse candidates or parties.

The dispute at the 3,500-member Episcopal church centers on a sermon titled "If Jesus Debated Senator Kerry and President Bush," delivered by a guest pastor. Though he did not endorse a candidate, he said Jesus would condemn the Iraq war and Bush's doctrine of pre-emptive war.

According to the IRS, the only church ever to be stripped of its tax- exempt status for partisan politicking was a church near Binghamton, N.Y., that ran full-page newspaper ads against President Clinton during the 1992 election season.


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Culture/Society; News/Current Events; US: California
KEYWORDS: allsaintsepiscopal; ecusa; irs; liberalchurch; religiousleft
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I know this case has been covered in previous threads but this appears to be a new article not yet posted, so I decided to go with it. What say ye?
1 posted on 09/22/2006 5:36:35 AM PDT by Mrs. Don-o
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To: Mikey; Brilliant; airedale; SandRat; xzins; Man50D; SmithL; Alex Murphy; Between the Lines; ...

What gives?


2 posted on 09/22/2006 5:40:16 AM PDT by Mrs. Don-o (Do the right thing.)
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To: Mrs. Don-o
According to the IRS, the only church ever to be stripped of its tax- exempt status for partisan politicking was a church near Binghamton, N.Y., that ran full-page newspaper ads against President Clinton during the 1992 election season.

I bet none of these weenies complained about this instance.
I hope they go to court - and for once, I hope the lawyers take ever dime they have, win or lose.

3 posted on 09/22/2006 5:43:23 AM PDT by grobdriver (Let the embeds check the bodies!)
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To: Mrs. Don-o

I am a proud member of the conservative religious right, and I am a pastor.

This decision by the IRS to pursue a pastor over the content of sermons and the outreach programs of the church is chilling.

I hate their politics, their morality, and their theology, but I support free expression for churches.


4 posted on 09/22/2006 5:43:53 AM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and proud of it! Supporting our troo This means praying for them to WIN!)
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To: Mrs. Don-o

The IRS is a threat to all churches. The IRS has such an expansive definition of political activity that it threatens freedom of speech, freedom of religion, and free exercise of religion guarantees of the first amendment.


5 posted on 09/22/2006 5:45:48 AM PDT by Paleo Conservative
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To: xzins
This decision by the IRS to pursue a pastor over the content of sermons and the outreach programs of the church is chilling.

Yep, but there are too many on the right willing to accept this since it is a liberal Church. Free Speech and the freedom of Religion Expression are a thing of the past. Unless it is vulgar speech, it is not protected.

6 posted on 09/22/2006 5:50:42 AM PDT by Always Right
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To: xzins
This decision by the IRS to pursue a pastor over the content of sermons and the outreach programs of the church is chilling.

Again you have not told the whole truth in this case.

This case is about more than just about the content of the Revs sermons!

Why do you continue your lies about this story?

7 posted on 09/22/2006 5:52:08 AM PDT by sausageseller (Look out for the jackbooted spelling police. There! Everywhere!(revised cause the "man" accosted me!)
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To: Always Right; xzins; Mrs. Don-o
Yep, but there are too many on the right willing to accept this since it is a liberal Church.

If Hillary Clinton were in the White House, the IRS would be investigating ten times as many churches.

8 posted on 09/22/2006 5:55:25 AM PDT by Paleo Conservative
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To: xzins; Mrs. Don-o

I'm for all churches having freedom of speech, but I'm against the double standard being used before. Conservative churches were under the microscope for political activities while liberal churches were given a pass.


9 posted on 09/22/2006 5:55:28 AM PDT by SmithL (Where are we going? . . . . And why are we in this handbasket????)
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To: sausageseller
Just what is it that you think xzins is lying about? I read his post and I see him expressing an opinion. I did not see him offering anything other than what was in the posted article.

What exactly are you referring to?

10 posted on 09/22/2006 5:59:25 AM PDT by Pablo64 ("Everything I say is fully substantiated by my own opinion.")
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To: xzins

when a religious entity that declares tax free status has such control and can have a very large voice in who wins elections, to remain tax free status, is just wrong. If they want to play they have to pay.


11 posted on 09/22/2006 6:00:16 AM PDT by television is just wrong (our sympathies are misguided with illegal aliens...)
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To: television is just wrong

Do you support McCain-Feingold?


12 posted on 09/22/2006 6:04:38 AM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and proud of it! Supporting our troo This means praying for them to WIN!)
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To: Mrs. Don-o

As a conservative and a pastor, this is scary. We have the first ammendment. And altho I disagree with the stands of Rector George Regas,if All Saints loses its tax free status it could lead to taxing other churches on other issues.
My guess is sooner or later there will be a push to do that because church's would represent quite a repository of untaxed resources. And this church is located in the Blue State of California but I suspect the property it sits on in Pasadena is worth millions.
It sets a very bad precedent.


13 posted on 09/22/2006 6:06:12 AM PDT by lexington minuteman 1775
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To: xzins

Did you have the same feeling for the IRS when they took away the tax exemption status from the church near N.Y. in 92?
I have watched Bill & Hillary, Jackson, Sharptom and, other libs campaign from the pulpit and, nothing was ever done about it.
Enough from these so called, religious left. If their interpretation of the Bible is as they see it, then no-one should worry about going to hell.
I cannot find in the Bible where abortion and, homosexuality are permitted, in fact, what I find it is contrary to their belief.


14 posted on 09/22/2006 6:13:33 AM PDT by buck61
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To: Paleo Conservative
If Hillary Clinton were in the White House, the IRS would be investigating ten times as many churches.

So you are saying we should do what the Clinton's do? What we should do is take this out of the IRS's hands.

15 posted on 09/22/2006 6:14:01 AM PDT by Always Right
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To: Mrs. Don-o
"...an anti-war sermon delivered just days before the 2004 presidential election..."

I have a feeling there is much more to the story than this. If the sermon had simply been "anti war", there is nothing wrong with a church teaching that. We may disagree with them, but that is certainly not illegal. However, I have a feeling that there was mention of "Bush's war against Iraq" or "Pro Kerry" since it happened only days before the 2004 Election.

As far as the sermon itself, there is no prohibition of sermon materials, as long as a candidate or ballot issue is not endorsed. This would be no different that a fundamentalist minister including opposition to abortion as part of a sermon. That alone will not endanger the church tax status, as long at that church believes and teaches it. .

16 posted on 09/22/2006 6:14:59 AM PDT by TommyDale (Iran President Ahmadinejad is shorter than Tom Daschle!)
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To: Mrs. Don-o

Interesting comments.

Perhaps a different perspective...if we didn't have an income tax, then we wouldn't be arguing over whether or not the church should pay it.

Sure, the flat tax or consumption tax proposals could be manipulated by politicians in similar fashion to income tax, but income tax by its nature opens itself up to this sort of manipulation.

Instead of arguing on this issue from a liberal vs conservative, religious vs atheist, or legal vs moral standpoints, maybe we should be pushing to get rid of the disaster the income tax system has become and make this whole point moot.


17 posted on 09/22/2006 6:15:21 AM PDT by CertainInalienableRights
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To: SmithL
I'm for all churches having freedom of speech, but I'm against the double standard being used before. Conservative churches were under the microscope for political activities while liberal churches were given a pass.

So do you think the IRS has a right to monitor what Church's preach on Sunday?

18 posted on 09/22/2006 6:15:43 AM PDT by Always Right
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To: Pablo64
Many other threads on this story with more info than that offered by article. .

XZINS has been supplied that info by other posters and he continues to not acknowledge it.

As Paul Harvey says " The Rest of The Story"!

19 posted on 09/22/2006 6:17:09 AM PDT by sausageseller (Look out for the jackbooted spelling police. There! Everywhere!(revised cause the "man" accosted me!)
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To: sausageseller
This case is about more than just about the content of the Revs sermons! Why do you continue your lies about this story?

From the article: "A liberal church that has been threatened with the loss of its tax- exempt status over an anti-war sermon delivered just days before the 2004 presidential election"

Seems no one is lying. Why the attack? Do you think the IRS should monitor what Churches preach inside their walls?

20 posted on 09/22/2006 6:18:31 AM PDT by Always Right
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