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VOTE ON TERROR RULES DEFIES BUSH (GOP-led panel gives detainees more protections)
The Houston Chronicle via The NY Times ^ | 9/14/06 | KATE ZERNIKE

Posted on 09/15/2006 5:03:46 AM PDT by demkicker

WASHINGTON - On a frantic day of Republican infighting, the Senate Armed Services Committee defied President Bush on Thursday as four Republicans joined Democrats in approving a plan for the trial and interrogation of terror suspects that the White House has rejected.

The Republican rebellion was led by Sen. John Warner of Virginia, the committee chairman, with backing from Sens. John McCain of Arizona, Lindsey Graham of South Carolina and Susan Collins of Maine. The White House had warned that their legislation would leave the United States no option but to shut down a CIA program to interrogate high-level terror suspects.

The vote came despite an all-out effort by the White House to win support for its own approach, which provides far fewer protections for detainees. Bush himself traveled to Capitol Hill with Vice President Dick Cheney on Thursday morning, and the administration released a brief letter in which the top lawyers for the military branches said they did not object to the White House proposal to redefine a key provision of the Geneva Conventions.

But former Secretary of State Colin L. Powell sided with the senators, saying in a letter that Bush's plan to redefine the Geneva Conventions would encourage the world to "doubt the moral basis of our fight against terrorism" and "put our own troops at risk."

Powell's statement amounted to a rare public breach with the White House he served, but reflected his opposition while in office to the administration's assertions that the war against al-Qaida should not be bound by the Geneva Conventions.... (continued at link)

(Excerpt) Read more at houstonchronicle.com ...


TOPICS: Foreign Affairs; Front Page News; Government; News/Current Events
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To: VA40

Anyone counted how many RINOs we're up to now? What is the real breakdown?<<

The real breakdown is their failure to understand the Constitution...it is written so that anyone that isnt a scholar of it can understand it...



61 posted on 09/15/2006 6:03:26 AM PDT by M-cubed (Why is "Greshams Law" a law?)
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To: dalight

Thank you for a very interesting and most informative post! You have some great ideas.


62 posted on 09/15/2006 6:03:58 AM PDT by demkicker (democrats, terrorists, Powell, McCain, Graham & Collins are intimate bedfellows)
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To: From One - Many
Americans interrogating enemy combatants have never been the way you describe (except for a few isolated incidences) and then it was nudity and panties on their heads not sawing a person into little pieces as is the practice of the enemy.

I'm talking specifically about the al-Qa'ida leadership, KSM, Abu Zubaydah, which are the guys at issue here. I've handled regular prisoners in Iraq, and can tell you straight up that no one treats their captured opponents better than we do. It wasn't uncommon for repeat offenders to ask us to send them to Abu G, where they would be "treated nice". If they heard Kurdish being spoken anywhere nearby, they'd beg us desperately not to give them to the Kurds.

Still, what good does that do us if the only ones who know we treat prisoners humanely are the insurgents? I'd have been happy to push a number of those guys in front of a commuter bus, but instead we treated them very well, and are now accused of being no better than the enemy. All of our effort in the world goes to nothing if we go on the record as saying that torture is okay sometimes, if we really need the info. It may be true, it may not, but it taints everything else we do.

63 posted on 09/15/2006 6:08:41 AM PDT by Steel Wolf (- Islam will never survive being laughed at. -)
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To: Steel Wolf
A) I was talking about future conflicts with actual nations.

Who are the nations that abide by the Geneva Convention and we are going to have a conflict with them in the futre?

64 posted on 09/15/2006 6:13:35 AM PDT by jveritas (Support The Commander in Chief in Times of War)
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To: demkicker
"What General Hayden wants us to do is immunize him not from liability but from criticism," McCain said following the vote, "because if one of his techniques is made public and he gets criticized, then he can say 'Well, Congress told me to do it.' He's trying to protect his reputation at the risk of America's reputation."

What a nasty thing to say. John McCain is an angry , angry man who treats those who opposed him with contempt.

65 posted on 09/15/2006 6:18:39 AM PDT by Zack Nguyen
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To: demkicker

66 posted on 09/15/2006 6:20:17 AM PDT by Gritty (Patriots don't have to be dangerous psychos like liberals, but they could act like men-Ann Coulter)
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To: Steel Wolf
The arguement is the core of the issue we're dealing with. Handing people over to a third party so they can "interrogate" them for us ain't beanbag.

It is my understanding that the legislation requested by the Bush administration involves how WE interrogate terrorists, not third parties.

I agree that the idea of "torture" is abused and stretched, but KSM and Abu Zubaydah got more than a wedgie before they started giving up the goods. If we're going to go down that road, then fine, but let's at least be cognizant of the unintended consequences.

I'm more concerned with the intended consequences of Powell and these four senators who refuse to even be specific about the do's and don'ts regarding interrogation techniques.

I don't need to. They know. In the end, the military realizes that the GWOT is a global counterinsurgency effort that isn't going to be won with firepower.

I cannot disagree with you more. Firepower is the only thing that terrorists and dictators understand. Granted, after we've defeated and killed enough of them, other carrots can be used to help us eventually claim victory.

67 posted on 09/15/2006 6:20:52 AM PDT by demkicker (democrats, terrorists, Powell, McCain, Graham & Collins are intimate bedfellows)
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To: demkicker
I really don't understand the argument with this issue. It's lame to claim that the President is rewriting Common Article Three of the Geneva Conventions. I haven't read anything from any of these four GOP senators that qualifies even remotely as an argument.  Their comments thus far are simply rhetorical in nature, yet look suspiciously like and have the form of a sound bite.  How on Earth can giving examples of torture be the same thing as pulling out of the Geneva Conventions or rewriting Article Three?

I have read this Common Article Three and it's something I can live with because I can recognize torture when I see it.  However, the problem is that we are no longer working with people that can reason. We live in a world where the enemy redefines words and concepts to fit their agenda.  I see the President trying to protect our soldiers by saying "you can do A, but you cannot do B, and if the people of Belgium want to claim "A" is a crime, I'll back you, not the confectionaries.

I'm about as fed up with McCain and his Vietnam-POW moral standing as I am over Kerry and his Christmas in Cambodia tale.  Forty years ago I'm sure Senator McCain would have been happy to listen to The Red Hot Chili Peppers.


68 posted on 09/15/2006 6:21:44 AM PDT by HawaiianGecko (Timing has a lot to do with the outcome of a rain dance.)
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To: sport
There are more than a few on this forum who would like to see John Mc Cain elected President of the United States because in their words, He is tough on terrorism."

I'd love to see them come on this thread and defend this bastard today!

69 posted on 09/15/2006 6:22:57 AM PDT by demkicker (democrats, terrorists, Powell, McCain, Graham & Collins are intimate bedfellows)
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To: jveritas
Who are the nations that abide by the Geneva Convention and we are going to have a conflict with them in the future?

There are none.

Pretty much by definition, any nation that's reasonable, moral and peaceful enough to abide by the Geneva conventions isn't going to fight us militarily.

Being a nation on this planet is like being trapped in a prison. Some of your fellow prisoners are thieves. Some are con men. Some are rapists and murderers. While we may be stuck with them, and may have to fight them every now and then, we don't have to be like them.

I don't know why I'm making this analogy, since you're just going to take the first three words of my reply, and make the brilliant observation of "If they don't follow the Geneva conventions, why should we?" But I figured I'd give it a shot.

70 posted on 09/15/2006 6:24:26 AM PDT by Steel Wolf (- Islam will never survive being laughed at. -)
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To: Steel Wolf
I've handled regular prisoners in Iraq, and can tell you straight up that no one treats their captured opponents better than we do. I know this...again, I do not understand why you support the Senate's decision....what is your arguement again.
71 posted on 09/15/2006 6:25:56 AM PDT by From One - Many (Trust the Old Media At Your Own Risk)
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To: HawaiianGecko; Peach
I'm about as fed up with McCain and his Vietnam-POW moral standing as I am over Kerry and his Christmas in Cambodia tale. Forty years ago I'm sure Senator McCain would have been happy to listen to The Red Hot Chili Peppers.

Great post! You have articulated exactly the way I feel in your other comments as well.

72 posted on 09/15/2006 6:26:08 AM PDT by demkicker (democrats, terrorists, Powell, McCain, Graham & Collins are intimate bedfellows)
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To: Zack Nguyen
"What General Hayden wants us to do is immunize him not from liability but from criticism," McCain said following the vote, "because if one of his techniques is made public and he gets criticized, then he can say 'Well, Congress told me to do it.' He's trying to protect his reputation at the risk of America's reputation."

More than nasty, it's stupid. All General Hayden wants is for Congress to do it's job, set some rules, and to be ready to accept responsibility. McCain may find doing his job inconvenient to his hobby, which is fence straddling, but life's not fair.

73 posted on 09/15/2006 6:27:59 AM PDT by Steel Wolf (- Islam will never survive being laughed at. -)
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To: demkicker

Thanks for that link, demkicker. McCain is on the wrong side of this issue and it's so clearly wrong and I think he knows it that your analysis about him running as an independent is absolutely correct, I think.

In fact, I think he's using this issue to force the wedge and give himself an excuse to run as an independent.


74 posted on 09/15/2006 6:30:15 AM PDT by Peach (The Clintons pardoned more terrorists than they captured or killed.)
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To: HawaiianGecko

Also, further to your post, didn't SCOTUS basically advise that Congress should look at Article 3 and determine what some of the phrases meant?


75 posted on 09/15/2006 6:31:05 AM PDT by Peach (The Clintons pardoned more terrorists than they captured or killed.)
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To: Zack Nguyen
"What General Hayden wants us to do is immunize him not from liability but from criticism," McCain said following the vote, "because if one of his techniques is made public and he gets criticized, then he can say 'Well, Congress told me to do it.' He's trying to protect his reputation at the risk of America's reputation."

YOU: "What a nasty thing to say. John McCain is an angry , angry man who treats those who opposed him with contempt."

_________________________________________________________

At his press conference today, I hope President Bush will pound the podium and go ballistic on this bastard, McCain and the other senators! There is no excuse for these remarks. At the very least, our military deserves to be insulated from law suits when they are risking their lives fighting inhumane terrorists.

76 posted on 09/15/2006 6:34:59 AM PDT by demkicker (democrats, terrorists, Powell, McCain, Graham & Collins are intimate bedfellows)
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To: Steel Wolf

"The point of my post was that future opponents could openly torture our guys and shrug it off as necessary,..."

Therefore they would show their true colors and we could further embolden people to our sides.


77 posted on 09/15/2006 6:36:15 AM PDT by CSM ("The fatter we get as a country the more concerned we get about smoking" - ichabod1)
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To: From One - Many
I know this...again, I do not understand why you support the Senate's decision....

To clarify, I don't. Neither the Senate nor the Administration are right, as far as I'm concerned.

The Administration cares so much about squeezing intelligence out of prisoners that they don't care what a deeply negative effect it has on us politically in the rest of the world. They genuinely want to keep America safe, but the prevention they're looking at may prove worse than the disease.

The Senate is flat out AWOL from doing it's job, which is to provide legislation that regulates a government activity. They should have been on this long before, of couse. They don't want to, because they're afraid of signing their name to anything that they can't pose their way out of later. As far as I'm concerned, if you don't have the stones to do your job, then resign, and let someone else take the wheel. I think that a few people in the Administration are too aggressive on this issue, but that dozens and dozens in the Senate are cowardly oxygen thieves who won't get off their rears and reign them in.

78 posted on 09/15/2006 6:36:37 AM PDT by Steel Wolf (- Islam will never survive being laughed at. -)
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To: RunningJoke

Oklahoma's Senator Inhofe who sits on Senate Armed Services should be Chairman not that wishy washy Warner who should never have run the last time IMO.


79 posted on 09/15/2006 6:37:20 AM PDT by PhiKapMom (Oust Brad Henry from the OK Governor's Mansion. Go Sooners!)
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To: CSM
Therefore they would show their true colors and we could further embolden people to our sides.

You typed that with a straight face, did you?

Everyone knows the true colors of Iran, North Korea, or Syria. If they're not morally outraged already, hearing about our troops getting electric shocks and hot irons until they give up classified information isn't really going to interest them.

80 posted on 09/15/2006 6:40:53 AM PDT by Steel Wolf (- Islam will never survive being laughed at. -)
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